FMJ AMMO FOR SELF DEFENSE

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:

FMJ has been used for many years and has killed millions...primarily in the military scenario where its use was mandated by international convention and for reliability reasons as well as cost. In the non-military scenario it certainly has its use and will continue to. In the end it still comes down to there's no magic "golden" bullet. The technology will continue to change and improve...as always.

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Pinecone said:

Also, the goal of military ammo is not necessarily to kill.

One wounded man take 4 able bodied men to carry him on a stretcher.

And wounded get sent home, where the friends and families see the wounded and start wondering if the conflict is worth it.

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outrider58 said:

...and where you put it.

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AliasNeo07 said:

I think the most often parroted reason is so that there is no POI shift between practicing and actually using the gun due to switching between two different loads.

I think that's silly, because who gives a damn what your POI shift is in self-defense type distances. We aren't talking about taking a headshot at 50 yards here.

Seems silly to me, but I'm just a guy.

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Pinecone said:

Also, the goal of military ammo is not necessarily to kill.

One wounded man take 4 able bodied men to carry him on a stretcher.

And wounded get sent home, where the friends and families see the wounded and start wondering if the conflict is worth it.

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fbi_surveillance_van said:

Often repeated, but that’s absolutely not modern U.S. doctrine, as seen with the introduction of M855A1. If shots are fired in anger, the objective is to eliminate the threat permanently. Wounding is the booby prize. It may be European doctrine though. Their odd sensibilities play an outsized role in weapons design.

For instance: Recently I was made aware of the fact that some EU militaries specify in their contracts to providers that ammunition may not fragment in addition to not expanding. Unsure how they view tumbling, but I would assume if they were aware of the phenomenon they would not allow that either. Pretty soon they’ll probably specify that the ammunition give the person a hug and a cup of tea instead of poking holes in them.

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Blaster229 said:

I don't care what you use, just don't hit me with it.

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outrider58 said:

Stay off my lawn!

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Blaster229 said:

Plick!

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Blaster229 said:

I don't care what you use, just don't hit me with it.

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dbledoc said:

This thread got me to thinking.

In my experience (not a combat vet, police officer, etc…), as an orthopedic surgeon who used to take call at an inner city hospital I tried to remember if I could tell a difference between FMJ and JHP injuries. I will have to state that if the patient got to me, they would have had to survive first. i.e., my team was never consulted if the injuries were to the torso or CNS.

The only real conclusion I can state is that 22s did little damage, rifle rounds were more damaging, and fragmenting bullets made more of a mess.

So, I just did a literature search using the keywords “bullet type”, “hollow points”, etc… to see if anyone has published an analysis of bullet type vs lethality or injury pattern. Interestingly, almost all of the very few publications I can find qualify rifle vs handgun to the head and neck area. I am unable to find any publications that discuss modern JHP style bullets vs FMJ in real world shootings. There are a number of articles that compare them in some type of ballistic gel.


I remember in the ‘80s the word was carry what the local LEOs carry to be able defend yourself in court. Now we have so many choices with little real world data that correlates effectiveness per particular bullet.

From a civilian scientific standpoint the conclusion is - there is little published medical literature that proves Gold dots are better than HST, V-cronw, critical duty, critical defense, ARX, etc….

So, personally I still think an expanding bullet is better to possibly limit collateral damage. Having the firearm with you or accessible, then reliability and shot placement are the key no matter what you shoot. If you miss the most expensive, best made round wont work.

Also, remember the trainers, instructors, and combat vets probably have 1000s or rounds and hundreds of hours of training, hence they are more likely to be able to put the round in the correct location. Think Mosad using .22s.

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dbledoc said:

This thread got me to thinking.

In my experience (not a combat vet, police officer, etc…), as an orthopedic surgeon who used to take call at an inner city hospital I tried to remember if I could tell a difference between FMJ and JHP injuries. I will have to state that if the patient got to me, they would have had to survive first. i.e., my team was never consulted if the injuries were to the torso or CNS.

The only real conclusion I can state is that 22s did little damage, rifle rounds were more damaging, and fragmenting bullets made more of a mess.

So, I just did a literature search using the keywords “bullet type”, “hollow points”, etc… to see if anyone has published an analysis of bullet type vs lethality or injury pattern. Interestingly, almost all of the very few publications I can find qualify rifle vs handgun to the head and neck area. I am unable to find any publications that discuss modern JHP style bullets vs FMJ in real world shootings. There are a number of articles that compare them in some type of ballistic gel.


I remember in the ‘80s the word was carry what the local LEOs carry to be able defend yourself in court. Now we have so many choices with little real world data that correlates effectiveness per particular bullet.

From a civilian scientific standpoint the conclusion is - there is little published medical literature that proves Gold dots are better than HST, V-cronw, critical duty, critical defense, ARX, etc….

So, personally I still think an expanding bullet is better to possibly limit collateral damage. Having the firearm with you or accessible, then reliability and shot placement are the key no matter what you shoot. If you miss the most expensive, best made round wont work.

Also, remember the trainers, instructors, and combat vets probably have 1000s or rounds and hundreds of hours of training, hence they are more likely to be able to put the round in the correct location. Think Mosad using .22s.

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Doco Overboard said:

Thanks for providing your first hand experience and logical input to the matter.
Im certainly not a DR by any means but have learned somewhat from reading printed published text based on the same methods for trained examination you almost exactly described above.
Information provide by surgeons who treat(ed) battlefield wounds. Condensed for publishing and printed for wide distribution and understanding for non trained individuals of course.
You can find the text that's not designed to be used as medical reference in two reliable sources that I'm aware of at the time that are related to the debate for the layman.

Small arms text book 1920 Ministry of Defense.

Colonel Townwsend Whelen, Ordnance Department United States Army.
Small Arms Designs and Ballistics Vol. 1

Both references go through pretty much a litany of information regarding FMJ's Dum DUm bullets, other design/bullet form features etc and how they work and why they are selected what they do. Killing power Wounding effect-Explosive effects with bone etc.

One would quickly realize that a lot of information/example making opurtunities that are frequently discussed recently, particularly on the web has all be done some time before in the past.

Just not by machine gun joe or Wham blam you tube guy who does not and never will have the resources available to them to do the same thing the governmental arsenals already know and have the mathematical formulas for, not just a block of clay or a tub of ballistic gelatin and go pro.

Harrell's video contained in this thread is directly based on experimentation/chapter information of Whelen's book but admittedly I already read it so skipped through it.

One thing that sticks out in mind as I type is the mention of Blood loss/bleeding out a leading cause of death for lack of available immediate treatment due to response and not so much as explosive craterformed tissue loss but I would have to verify from the text to be entirely sure.

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dbledoc said:

I agree with you.
However, it you look at when most of those references were put together and the data was collected, it was all done before what we consider to be modern bullet design began.

In the confiscated gun photos thread, most of the ammo that gets confiscated appears to be a mix of various FMJ rounds with an occasional JHP, I am assuming that most of the other criminals across the US are using similar ammo (whatever they can get their hands on). If we extrapolate, I believe the vast majority of criminal shootings and fatalities probably occur with FMJ.

Just my guess.

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