Benelli M4 clones. (Turknelli M4)

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  • ToolAA

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 17, 2016
    10,499
    God's Country
    Thanks @ToolAA! the Black Aces pros S4 I got come with a fixed rifle stock (non pistol grip) It has a Benelli M2 styles recoil buffer tube, it is stright smooth tube without any slot. I have heard the newer m4 clone with pistol grip version does come with the slotted tube. So it will fit OEM Collapsible stock? Does your Turknelli Collapsible buttstock kit come with its own recoil tube? Do you just transfer the spring and plug to new tube? If it does, it will solve my problem.

    The stock S4 tube is totally smooth. The Collapsible kit I linked does come with a new tube that is slotted similar to how an AR-15 buffer tube works. It also included the spting and buffer. Although swapped the spring for the OEM Benelli spring.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    ToolAA

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 17, 2016
    10,499
    God's Country
    @squaregrouper and I had a little live fire comparison today at AGC between his Stock ASKA S4 Clone my heavily modified Black Aces S4 Clone and a genuine stock Benelli M4 H2O. I want to post up some of our findings and observations for now. I'll post a video a bit later when I have some more time to do some editing.

    Here is a list of the ammo we tested in order from lowest velocity to highest 300 rounds total
    Federal Target 2-3/4" #8 Shot 1180fps
    Winchester Super Target 2-3/4" #8 Shot 1180fps
    Federal Field & Target 2-3/4" #8 Shot 1200fps
    Herter's Hunting 2-3/4" #5 Shot 1220fps
    Remington Express Long Range 2-3/4" #4 Shot 1330fps
    PMC One-Shot 2-3/4" 00 Buck 1330fps
    Royal RIO 2-3/4" 00 Buck 1345fps
    Federal Upland Steel 2-3/4" #6 Shot 1400fps
    Winchester Super-X 3" BB 1400fps
    Kent Fasteel 3" BB 1560fps
    Herter's Hunting 2-3/4" Rifled Slug 1600fps
    Federal Power Shock 2-3/4" Rifled Slug 1610fps

    887b8f1cefad18b9a9fa33a81e1d0109.jpg



    Squaregrouper ran about 125 various rounds through his stock S4 with he had zero failures. However, he noticed that his stock was a little loose. We attempted to tighten it up in the field, but didnt have an M8 Allen wrench. When he got home he added some locktite and tightened it up.

    So we were left with my "Guccinelli" to brutalize.
    I started off with Winchester Super Target and experienced immediate various failure to feed and failure to eject. Almost every single round we attempted to fire would not cycle.
    Then tested the Federal Target loads. I had a little better luck. I could maybe fire a string of 2 or 3 rounds, but I would say about 1/2 of all rounds fired either failed to eject or feed.

    Interestingly Squaregrouper had NO problems firing either of these loads. We could see the gun was barely cycling, but it did cycle every single time. He had an idea to try the same loads in the Benelli. Sure, enough the result was the same as in my modified S4. The Benelli would not cycle reliably with the low velocity target loads. My S4 had an actual Benelli recoil spring, so we think that is why they are both similarly. The recoil spring in the unmodified S4 Clone must be a little softer. This also jives with my own experience because back in Novermber with the stock buttstock and recoil spring, I ran two boxes of the Federal Target loads through with only 2 failures.

    From this point we ran everything we could through my Modified S4. The gun fired reliably, even with rapid 7-round strings. We thing we put about 175 rounds through my gun and only had one failure to feed using the Kent ammo.

    Here is the inside of the receiver after the test.
    d32d008787936e200b653a0ba9989ac8.jpg


    When I got home I disassembled the gun to check for any unusual problems.

    72b2347096292c233c783c0b74721e9d.jpg


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    d514ac25a7d3e5e5cbba3914ec1b9609.jpg


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    c5c3d1920c6c606abf93df9c81db6782.jpg


    I looked closely at the bolt carrier face where the gas pistons strike the unlock the bolt. On AR15.com there have been reports if bolt carriers which were deforming because the steel was not properly hardened. I don’t see any issues now, but I’ll keep monitoring this.

    The only minor issue I did discover is that the FCG retaining pin has backed out about 1/16”. The retaining clip is still tight in the groove on the other end. I’ll tap it back in for now and see if it backs out again.
     
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    I want to bold ToolAA's post above about the low velocity rounds. The actual Benelli M4 H2O wouldn't cycle them either. Benelli springs must be stronger that factory Turknelli springs.
    I have the same issue with my Black Aces Bullpup- it eats anything over 1225fps but isn't reliable with low velocity shells.
     
    Another tidbit I noticed and maybe ToolAA disagrees... Firing the stock Turknelli and the Actual M4 back and forth they were very similar to each other. The Benelli trigger was less gritty and the Turknelli butt pad absorbed more recoil, but the two felt extremely alike while shooting together.
    I am confident that after 10,000rds the Benelli will prove it is the better shotgun. However, from our tests, @erwos was correct in his comments about getting 90% of the performance at 1/4 the price tag.
     

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    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    I was really sorry I had to miss the shotgun shootoff... I'm pretty sure I heard it over in the bays. :)

    Unsurprised about the travails with the regular M4 recoil spring, but it's a good warning that replacing parts is not always the right move. I think it is insufficiently appreciated in some circles that real Benellis really don't always run with everything out of the box, and sometimes require tweaking. It reminds me of some of the earlier critiques of the Tec-12 / Duo-Sys when people were having trouble running birdshot in semi-auto mode... guess what, even the real M3 is infamous for not being good with birdshot while running semi-auto.
     
    I was really sorry I had to miss the shotgun shootoff... I'm pretty sure I heard it over in the bays. :)

    Unsurprised about the travails with the regular M4 recoil spring, but it's a good warning that replacing parts is not always the right move. I think it is insufficiently appreciated in some circles that real Benellis really don't always run with everything out of the box, and sometimes require tweaking. It reminds me of some of the earlier critiques of the Tec-12 / Duo-Sys when people were having trouble running birdshot in semi-auto mode... guess what, even the real M3 is infamous for not being good with birdshot while running semi-auto.
    If you heard hundreds and hundreds of rapid fire shotgun blasts starting around 1:45, that was us.

    ETA- We told the RSO what we were planning on doing before we started. He thanked us and mentioned he would have paid us a visit if he didn't know why we were doing all that blasting without a target. He was adamant that as long as we were hitting the backstop and not the woods or grass he was fine with it.
     
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    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,644
    MoCo
    So after a year+ of resisting these (I already have a Versamax Competition), I finally caved and picked up a lightly used Radikal SAX2 from MDS member @Meditator in the classifieds. He had said it would only cycle high powered slugs (Breneke KO 1600+fps). The low powered slugs didn't cycle. He was only 30 rounds into the break-in period.
    Anyway, I took it apart to inspect and quickly found a small problem. One of the gas pistons is hanging on the barrel with a telltale rub mark. It looks like the gas block isn't PERFECTLY aligned with the barrel cutouts. So the right piston (as viewed when firing the gun) only had about 1/2 its stroke. By hand you really couldn't get it the full way. It stopped well short of hitting the 'wall'. I fixed that by clearancing the barrel cutout a little more. I also noticed the left piston has its chrome(?) plating chipping off. It appears to be hanging in the receiver a bit. I polished that.

    'before' pic: You can see where the right piston (bottom one in pic) was hitting the barrel cutout. The chipped left piston (top one) is also visible.
    PXL_20230208_before.jpg


    'after' pic: You can see where I clearanced the barrel cutout and polished the other piston tip.
    PXL_20230208_after.jpg


    You can now 'shake' the assembled gun either muzzle up/down and see the pistons move freely in/out. The right side one takes a small mirror to inspect (or reach in and use your finger to feel it.) So on a hunch that was going to be good enough I grabbed the cheapest/weakest ammo I had on hand: Herter's 7-1/2 target loads 1200fps (the cheap stuff I use for sporting clays and shooting soda cans.) Cycled a few rounds no problem! :party29:

    So if your gun doesn't like lighter loads, check these spots.

    Now I'm off to order some 922r parts. Going to do the full tube, make a new follower, and still debating whats the third part.
    Not sure I'm in love w/ the pistol grip either. Yeah, it handles like a rifle so I see the point in combat but I think they are stupid on a shotgun. My Versamax handles great in 3-gun and it has a traditional stock. I know a fellow w/ a real M4 that has the collapsible stock so I'll play w/ that (can't argue that collapsible stocks are cool!) but I'm still inclined to swap back to a non pistol grip. I'll give the stock grip a try for a while though. It does make it take up more precious room in the safe.
     
    So after a year+ of resisting these (I already have a Versamax Competition), I finally caved and picked up a lightly used Radikal SAX2 from MDS member @Meditator in the classifieds. He had said it would only cycle high powered slugs (Breneke KO 1600+fps). The low powered slugs didn't cycle. He was only 30 rounds into the break-in period.
    Anyway, I took it apart to inspect and quickly found a small problem. One of the gas pistons is hanging on the barrel with a telltale rub mark. It looks like the gas block isn't PERFECTLY aligned with the barrel cutouts. So the right piston (as viewed when firing the gun) only had about 1/2 its stroke. By hand you really couldn't get it the full way. It stopped well short of hitting the 'wall'. I fixed that by clearancing the barrel cutout a little more. I also noticed the left piston has its chrome(?) plating chipping off. It appears to be hanging in the receiver a bit. I polished that.

    'before' pic: You can see where the right piston (bottom one in pic) was hitting the barrel cutout. The chipped left piston (top one) is also visible.
    View attachment 400578

    'after' pic: You can see where I clearanced the barrel cutout and polished the other piston tip.
    View attachment 400579

    You can now 'shake' the assembled gun either muzzle up/down and see the pistons move freely in/out. The right side one takes a small mirror to inspect (or reach in and use your finger to feel it.) So on a hunch that was going to be good enough I grabbed the cheapest/weakest ammo I had on hand: Herter's 7-1/2 target loads 1200fps (the cheap stuff I use for sporting clays and shooting soda cans.) Cycled a few rounds no problem! :party29:

    So if your gun doesn't like lighter loads, check these spots.

    Now I'm off to order some 922r parts. Going to do the full tube, make a new follower, and still debating whats the third part.
    Not sure I'm in love w/ the pistol grip either. Yeah, it handles like a rifle so I see the point in combat but I think they are stupid on a shotgun. My Versamax handles great in 3-gun and it has a traditional stock. I know a fellow w/ a real M4 that has the collapsible stock so I'll play w/ that (can't argue that collapsible stocks are cool!) but I'm still inclined to swap back to a non pistol grip. I'll give the stock grip a try for a while though. It does make it take up more precious room in the safe.
    I have a factory Benelli M4 straight (non pistol grip) stock if you need it.
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,644
    MoCo
    Has taken me a while but I finally got around to making a new 7+1 tube for this thing (vs 5+1 before). Titanium. Saves 92g (3.2oz) which interestingly enough is exactly what two more 00 Buck shells weigh. Will probably bead blast and/or cerakote it at some point but for now will live 'in the white.' Had to make a new follower as the ID is ever so slightly smaller.

    My next projects will be a large charging handle and shell release button. I'm on a quest/challenge to upgrade it while spending the minimum possible. All in I think I'll be able to keep it under $50. I refuse to pay Italian upgrade prices for a Turkish gun :)
     

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    ToolAA

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 17, 2016
    10,499
    God's Country
    Has taken me a while but I finally got around to making a new 7+1 tube for this thing (vs 5+1 before). Titanium. Saves 92g (3.2oz) which interestingly enough is exactly what two more 00 Buck shells weigh. Will probably bead blast and/or cerakote it at some point but for now will live 'in the white.' Had to make a new follower as the ID is ever so slightly smaller.

    My next projects will be a large charging handle and shell release button. I'm on a quest/challenge to upgrade it while spending the minimum possible. All in I think I'll be able to keep it under $50. I refuse to pay Italian upgrade prices for a Turkish gun :)

    Very nicely done.


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    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,644
    MoCo
    Talked some friends into looking at these instead of what they original had planned. Looks like the Atlantic Panzer M4 is one of the better priced still avail today.

    Anyway, got me thinking about them again so I worked on my charging handle. Basic process: machined a 3/4" rod, knurled, machine off the peaks of the knurls so its not too aggressive, drill for a snug fit of the orig handle, welded the handle in from the backside, put it back in the lathe and machined out the center for weight, welded the inside, cold blued. Mine doesn't stick out as far as some of the commercial ones. (3/4" vs maybe 1"?) Its a LOT easier to remove now due to the diameter and knurling.

    I still need to park it next time I have the tank and solution out.
     

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    bigjohn

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 29, 2007
    2,752
    So which of the clones seems to be the better quality one to start this build? Sorry, too many pages and I’m sure I’ve over looked it
     

    zx10guy

    Alpha Geek
    Sep 29, 2022
    323
    Maryland
    Figure I'd revive this thread and add something to it. Thanks for the wealth of information that has been put into this thread.

    So after some long consideration and reading/viewing tons of reviews of various M4 clones, I decided to settle on an Orthos Arms Raider S4. I haven't seen a lot of reviews on it but those that have reviewed it have been favorable. I haven't fired it yet as I'm still going through the process having this be my first shotgun.

    Why I decided to go this route even though it's pretty pricey is that much of the mods I wanted to do have been done on the Raider and I don't have to worry about 922R compliance. With that said, I've already done mods to it. Aside from the sling setup which required the sling; QD M Lok mount; and QD sling attachment, I've replaced the stock iron sights with Meprolight night sights, bright red follower, and GG&G oversized charging handle.

    A couple of issues I have with the Raider. One was the assembly of the magazine tube clamp at the factory caused some marring of the cerakote finish to the barrel and magazine tube on one side. The other is the shotgun was supposed to come with the advertised Fibertron front sight. I contacted Orthos and they said due to production issues they shipped the shotguns with standard front sights. They asked for me to check with them in a few weeks to see if they have them in stock and I would get one shipped to me for free.

    Hope to get a chance to run some rounds through it soon.
     

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