44mag or 45-70 carbine?

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  • Slackdaddy

    My pronouns: Iva/Bigun
    Jan 1, 2019
    5,845
    Funds are tight and going to be tight for the foreseeable future, I had sworn off any new gun purchases in 2022,, but may be able to squeeze one in :)

    The Marlin S.S. guidegun in 45-70 and laminate has always been dream gun of mine that I really had no use for, other than shooting a T-Rex or outlaw oil company security forces (Windriver movie).

    I do a ton of MD deer hunting, and have been using a 20ga H&R USH in thumbhole for the last 10 years.
    With the inclusion of SWC rifles, I have been looking hard at a 44mag carbine (Ruger 44 carbine, Ruger 96/44, Marlin 44 trapper lever, Henry X series 44)

    Sad truth is, I can not justify the practical 44 deer gun AND the 45-70 dream gun. But may be able to swing buying one or the other.
    Eventually I was going to picking up a 44mag revolver for my fishing/hunting trips with my Son in law in western bear country.

    Question: Could a 45-70 be loaded down to mimic a 44 mag in energy and felt recoil? cost difference between factory loads AND reloading of the 44mag and 45-70.
     

    RRomig

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 30, 2021
    1,924
    Burtonsville MD
    If 45-70 is the dream then you’ve answered your own question. Life’s short , don’t settle.
     
    Last edited:

    boule

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 16, 2008
    1,948
    Galt's Gulch
    Question: Could a 45-70 be loaded down to mimic a 44 mag in energy and felt recoil? cost difference between factory loads AND reloading of the 44mag and 45-70.

    Question is - why would you want to load down a 45-70 in a Marlin? It ain`t that bad of a recoil.

    But yeah, it is practical. Get a can of the mini-donoughts (Trail Boss) and use 300gr cast lead bullets. A decent shooting, weak load is highly dependant on your case volume but in my experience, Trail Boss has a pretty broad node on the loading ladder.

    And yes, there will always be a cost difference between 45-70 and 44mag.
     

    Virgil Co.C

    Active Member
    Aug 10, 2018
    615
    Both? Kinda in same situation. 44 lever for me only because I have a pistol . But if I was strictly hunting I would probably go with 45/70. I like big guns and I cannot lie.
     

    Slackdaddy

    My pronouns: Iva/Bigun
    Jan 1, 2019
    5,845
    My 20ga H&R Ultra Slug Hunter is about all the recoil I want when practicing.
    My hunting situations are 100 yds and under, mostly 50 yds and under.
    So I do not need a hot loaded 45-70.,, The tamer the better for practicing and hunting.

    The only advantage of the 44mag carbine, is that I plan to shortly get a 44 mag pistol. A 44mag carbine "should" give me acceptable performance on deer at 100 yds and under? just wondering if I can get "hunting" bullets to reload, like soft lead Keith Nose?

    I keep coming back to the 44mag is what I want,, but what if I am being chased by a T-Rex???

    Question is - why would you want to load down a 45-70 in a Marlin? It ain`t that bad of a recoil.

    But yeah, it is practical. Get a can of the mini-donoughts (Trail Boss) and use 300gr cast lead bullets. A decent shooting, weak load is highly dependant on your case volume but in my experience, Trail Boss has a pretty broad node on the loading ladder.

    And yes, there will always be a cost difference between 45-70 and 44mag.
     

    Slackdaddy

    My pronouns: Iva/Bigun
    Jan 1, 2019
    5,845
    Yeah, the 44mag makes the most sense,,,, But on a rare occasion you just wanna drop the trousers and swing it around some!! And that is were the 45-70 comes in :)

    Both? Kinda in same situation. 44 lever for me only because I have a pistol . But if I was strictly hunting I would probably go with 45/70. I like big guns and I cannot lie.
     

    Trepang

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 10, 2015
    3,310
    Southern Illinois
    ....... shooting a T-Rex or outlaw oil company security forces (Wind river movie)....

    Don't be "that guy" that's unprepared if a T-Rex does make an appearance...lol

    I love that scene in Wind River ... I like the way they had the guy being blown across the room when he gets whacked with that .45-70.

    Love my JM Marlins....My favorite out of all my rifles
     

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    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    Direct Answer : .45-70 can be loaded to a wide range of velocity/ power/ recoil . Currently brass and ammo is more available in .44 , but once you have a stash of brass , it's not a big issue .

    In normal times , low recoil .44 ammo is commercially available , with .45-70 you will have to load ( anything less than mainstream 300gr jhp ) yourself .

    If a .44 Revolver is in your future , that's also a factor .

    But obviously , you Want what you Want , and .45-70 is certainly a viable choice . But it looks like a waiting game for Ruger- Marlins to be readily available . at non scalper prices , and previous examples are in high demand also .
     

    Slackdaddy

    My pronouns: Iva/Bigun
    Jan 1, 2019
    5,845
    Is it just me,, or is that Marlin gonna be skipping off his shoulder when he pulls the trigger. He could stand to be a little more "Squared up"


    Don't be "that guy" that's unprepared if a T-Rex does make an appearance...lol

    I love that scene in Wind River ... I like the way they had the guy being blown across the room when he gets whacked with that .45-70.

    Love my JM Marlins....My favorite out of all my rifles
     

    Slackdaddy

    My pronouns: Iva/Bigun
    Jan 1, 2019
    5,845
    I did just look up the 20ga Rottweil laser slugs I have been shooting for the last 6-8 years. 410gr lead, 1600 FPS (muzzle), 2331 Ft. Pounds (Muzzle)
    I do like the performance I get from the 20ga.

    The 44 loads are gonna top out at 15-1600 Ft. Pounds (muzzle of 18" barrel)
    The 45-70 loads are all over the place, most common loads 24-2800 ft. pounds of energy (muzzle)

    Not finding much data on the 44mag, out of a rifle, at 100 yards.

    Direct Answer : .45-70 can be loaded to a wide range of velocity/ power/ recoil . Currently brass and ammo is more available in .44 , but once you have a stash of brass , it's not a big issue .

    In normal times , low recoil .44 ammo is commercially available , with .45-70 you will have to load ( anything less than mainstream 300gr jhp ) yourself .

    If a .44 Revolver is in your future , that's also a factor .

    But obviously , you Want what you Want , and .45-70 is certainly a viable choice . But it looks like a waiting game for Ruger- Marlins to be readily available . at non scalper prices , and previous examples are in high demand also .
     

    boule

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 16, 2008
    1,948
    Galt's Gulch
    My hunting situations are 100 yds and under, mostly 50 yds and under.
    So I do not need a hot loaded 45-70.,, The tamer the better for practicing and hunting.

    I always need to remember that recoil is highly subjective and my shoulder is not a good indicator.
    Most really soft range loads in a 45-70 are not necessarily the best idea for hunting. Even a soft lead projectile may not expand enough so you would need two different loads for hunting and range practice.

    The 44mag is a different animal for hunting. The simple cup&core bullets usually employed in a flat nose design are not meant to be pushed faster than handgun velocities. Unfortunately rifles are doing a good job of accelerating them past that velocity. The effects on game are then rather explosive and you may not get sufficient penetration. You may want to stick to something bonded like the speer deep curl or hornady xtp.


    45-70 is a very valid choice for hunting. If you really feel that it is your dream gun then go for it. The bullets (cast) are more expensive than anything comparable in .44 and hunting loads will have more recoil in the shoulder but you will soon be able to handle it.

    Another point that should be considered. Marlin was sold a few times and the machines were shipped off to Ruger. They only recently started up manufacturing again and are currently only producing the 1895 in 45-70. Once they start hitting shelfs, there should be no "rarity" price to it anymore. If you want to look at a 44 lever instead of the carbines, those might stil be some way out.
     

    Clifjr

    Active Member
    Feb 2, 2014
    966
    Germantown
    I’d be more worried about the recoil of the pistol than either rifle.. Handguns usually have more felt recoil than rifles. I have many 44mag pistols and rifles but no 45/70 yet. But since you are worried about the recoil just make sure whatever rifle you get has a recoil pad. I have a Winchester lever that is chambered in 444 Marlin and it has no recoil pad and it will bruise me in 1 shot! And since your already planing on getting a handgun in 44mag maybe a rifle in 44mag is more convenient?
     

    Pale Ryder

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 12, 2009
    6,234
    Millersville
    Last year my LGS had a Marlin 1895 45/70 for $800 and a Marlin 1894 44 Mag for $450. I chose the 44 Mag because I already have a 44 revolver, and reloading stuff. I still think about the 44/70 though. Can’t go wrong either way.:)



     

    Batt816

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 1, 2018
    4,087
    Eastern Shore
    Don't be "that guy" that's unprepared if a T-Rex does make an appearance...lol

    I love that scene in Wind River ... I like the way they had the guy being blown across the room when he gets whacked with that .45-70.

    Love my JM Marlins....My favorite out of all my rifles

    Those are really nice!
     

    C.Alls

    Active Member
    Nov 9, 2013
    237
    I have a Marlin Dark in 45/70. I have a few loads for it but my favorite is a 375 grain HP bullet that I cast and shoot over 11.8 grains of Trail Boss. It will print 1"-1.5" groups at 100 yards with a muzzle velocity just under 1000fps. It's also ridiculously quiet when paired with my suppressor.

    I also load the same bullet over H322 for a muzzle velocity of 1550fps and consistent 1.5" groups. The gun also eats the Leverevolution (325 grain FTX bullet @1850 from my 16" barrel) and really lays the smack down. My advice is get the 45/70.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    Generic 240gr .44 Mag goes 1700- ish from rifles .

    The 20ga Rott Lazer drops to 1160- 1190 ft lb @ 100yds , losing velocity faster due to the lower sectional density . ( Not slamming them , but the subject of 100yd energy did come up .)

    Your 20 USH is already a fine deer hunting firearm , inside 100yds there won't be dramatic difference with .44 Mag or .45-70 .

    ( Other than Maryland regulations ) pocket calculators don't kill deer , large caliber , deep wound channels do . Can Bambi tell the difference between full penetration with .429 cast bullet and .458 cast bullet ? Probably not .

    For meeting Md"s arbitrary Energy numbers , a
    45-70 pushing a 300gr at 1350 fps will do that . ( Yes , that's fairly mild by .45-70 context .)

    Bottom line - 20ga Sabot, and .44 Mag , and
    45-70 all will more than adequately kill Maryland deer . at more or less similar distances . Some those will also do other things as well

    This isn't helping your decision . Rather , it frees your decision to be on the basis of which firearm platform you otherwise like , rather than hunting effectiveness .
     

    Slackdaddy

    My pronouns: Iva/Bigun
    Jan 1, 2019
    5,845
    Thanks, that does put it in perspective. All 3 will easily kill deer inside my 100 yard limit. And the 44M or 45-70 probably no better than what I am using now.

    Generic 240gr .44 Mag goes 1700- ish from rifles .

    The 20ga Rott Lazer drops to 1160- 1190 ft lb @ 100yds , losing velocity faster due to the lower sectional density . ( Not slamming them , but the subject of 100yd energy did come up .)

    Your 20 USH is already a fine deer hunting firearm , inside 100yds there won't be dramatic difference with .44 Mag or .45-70 .

    ( Other than Maryland regulations ) pocket calculators don't kill deer , large caliber , deep wound channels do . Can Bambi tell the difference between full penetration with .429 cast bullet and .458 cast bullet ? Probably not .

    For meeting Md"s arbitrary Energy numbers , a
    45-70 pushing a 300gr at 1350 fps will do that . ( Yes , that's fairly mild by .45-70 context .)

    Bottom line - 20ga Sabot, and .44 Mag , and
    45-70 all will more than adequately kill Maryland deer . at more or less similar distances . Some those will also do other things as well

    This isn't helping your decision . Rather , it frees your decision to be on the basis of which firearm platform you otherwise like , rather than hunting effectiveness .
     

    Uncle Duke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    11,665
    Not Far Enough from the City
    I had this same debate with myself, and (for me) wound up going the .44 route. I'm also a handloader and a hunter, and a hunter who over many years has killed north of 90% of the deer I've ever killed in the areas I've hunted, inside of 100 yards. And with that thought in mind, either rifle is fully capable, inside of that range. Game larger than deer won't enter into the decision for me as it may for some.

    So my next thought was, what else would you want to do with it, if you weren't hunting? Me, I love to hunt, but I also love to shoot. And again for me, clanging steel with a lever gun is a whole lot of fun.

    I'll often load some comparatively less expensive 44 Specials, and shoot 100 rounds or so on a given day. Less often, 44 mag. Now I love to shoot, but I don't want to shoot 100 rounds of 45-70. Not today. Not on any other given day either. That's just me.

    You know, recoil is a very subjective thing. There are some who will say that repeated .45-70 recoil doesn't bother them, regardless of the volume or the loading. If pressed for an opinion? I'd suggest that half of them, are lying. The other half? The other half ain't telling the truth.

    I think that Hunting vs. "What Else"? Well, for some, "what else" might be cost. Might be rifle availability. Might be the prospect of hunting future larger and heavier game. Might be you want to dabble with black powder loads. Might be the amount of time one sees himself behind that buttstock, while leaning into a bench. Might be bigger is better. Whatever it is, it's every man's wallet. Take your pick and pay the man. But something will almost certainly push your choice, one way or the other.

    Enjoy!
     

    Virgil Co.C

    Active Member
    Aug 10, 2018
    615
    Yes absolutely the 45/70 can beat ya up. 44 is more than capable of 100 yd shots . Want the 44 knowing it fulfills your needs and more practical for ya but I think ya may want the 45/70 as you say to let it swing . I get it . Agree you would have to /should reload the 45/70. But the 44 seems to be the sensible caliber for your application/use.
     

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