FMJ AMMO FOR SELF DEFENSE

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  • mpollan1

    Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 26, 2012
    6,559
    Мэриленд
    Yes, very much so. Even the various types of JHP. I pay a premium for HST1 over Hydra-Shok for example.

    Perhaps I did not word my question properly and is why I presented the caveat. My question was whether margins are better on JHP. If not for you, are they better for the likes of BassPro type outfits?
     

    mpollan1

    Foxtrot Juliet Bravo
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 26, 2012
    6,559
    Мэриленд
    Not to get into Ammo Jon's business either...but just because something costs more to buy wholesale doesn't necessarily translate into increased profits...the laws of supply and demand still apply. Something purchased and sold for less can often translate into higher profit margins...the higher priced but lower profit margin products might provide cash flow but not necessarily more profit.

    It all comes down to supply and demand and what someone is willing to pay for a product.

    Yes I understand all that. Was curious specifically JHP vs FMJ based on AJ's post.
     

    Ammo Jon

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 3, 2008
    20,787
    Perhaps I did not word my question properly and is why I presented the caveat. My question was whether margins are better on JHP. If not for you, are they better for the likes of BassPro type outfits?

    Yes, better for me which is why I encourage buying it :)
     

    Darkemp

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 18, 2009
    7,808
    Marylandistan
    Another question, does anyone have any experience with the new Gen 2 Shield Arms 15 round magazines for the Glock 43X, taking magazine capacity from 10 to 15 rounds.

    Thank you..

    I’m in the JHP camp for carry/defense as most folks are.

    As for the S15’s- I carry them and shoot them at the range, reliable with everything so far except the Winchester USA Forged steel cased target loads (only had a few boxes of those- cheap) but it could be the rounds themselves, I get the occasional FTE from those rather than a feeding issue. The mags are a tight fit at full capacity and you need to use a loader (I use an Uplula) to fill them up.
     

    ADR

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 17, 2011
    4,171
    Windshield penetration of FMJ vs HP is negligible all else being equal. There is a delta but it’s not gonna be noticeable to the average gaffer.

    Pro tip…aim high when shooting into a vehicle thru windshield. Aim low when shooting out through a windshield. Moreso with pistol than carbine.

    Pro Tip - Make multiple shots whenever shooting through a windshield. A coworker was part of an extensive field study regarding windshields and the conclusion reached was - they go wherever they want without regards to the aiming theory frequently expressed. (Too many variables between vehicles, glass structure, curvature, etc.. for a hard, fast rule.) The same coworker actually had a lethal engagement through glass at another agency earlier on.
     

    lowoncash

    Baned
    Jan 4, 2010
    3,447
    Calvert county
    In some classroom course somewhere an instructor talked about an instance of ball (FMJ) used for self defense. The assailant survived and sued the victim on the pretense of trying to maim and injure and that was cruel and unusual punishment saying defense ammo should have been used. I never verified the story.

    Bottom line is anyone can sue anyone else for any reason.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    There are a couple reasons a few knowledgeable instructors give:
    Train and fight with the same ammo, IMO probably the most compelling reason, no POA shift, no difference in function or recoil, and a better chance of good shot placement. You can minimize the difference by training with your defensive HP ammo, and finding practice ammo that feels like it.
    Good penetration, this can be useful in some marginal calibers like 32 and 380, less so in 9mm, penetration is more important than expansion, where a FMJ will not cause as wide a cavity, it still will peirce organs, CNS and is still capable of incapacitation from direct trauma, even if it may cause less soft tissue damage in muscle and fat.
    Reliability and cost, reliability is less of an issue in newer designs, but HP designs vary wildly, may cost several times the cost of FMJ, and some pistols are more likely to jam, I would sooner trust FMJ if I have fired thousands of rounds without issue than HP where I only ran through a single box.
    Of course HP defensive ammo outperforms FMJ in the vast majority of tests and circumstances, and generally will crush more tissue, but there are some valid reasons FMJ can be relevant. Also some fairly knowledgeable people have a personal bias or recommend something that might not be the best choice, or recommend it for reasons that aren't really valid outside of a limited audience.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    In some classroom course somewhere an instructor talked about an instance of ball (FMJ) used for self defense. The assailant survived and sued the victim on the pretense of trying to maim and injure and that was cruel and unusual punishment saying defense ammo should have been used. I never verified the story.

    Bottom line is anyone can sue anyone else for any reason.

    Yup, and in the gun world there are a million "I heard one time....." reasons to justify stupidity that goes against data or verifiable wisdom, some are valid, the vast majority are not. Generally if you can articulate that you were using lethal force for a lawful reason, the particulars of that don't matter much. The vast majority of things as it pertains to ammo, like demonizing HPs, high cap mags, or even the model of firearm used are just cheap parlor tricks by a DA or attorney trying to chip away at the overall legitimacy of the self-defense claim. This is also why many laws like SYG or immunity from liability are so important, they stop a lot of the BS games, and protect someone from civil suits if it was demonstrated they had the right to use force.
     

    TheOriginalMexicanBob

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 2, 2017
    32,178
    Sun City West, AZ
    Training and fighting with the same ammunition make eminent sense...but in the real world with the vast majority of self-defense distances any difference in POI between FMJ and HP bullets of the same weight (assuming standard pressure...not +P)...will be minimal at most. Law enforcement will usually use the same ammunition for both practice and qualifications for logistical reasons as much as legal liability reasons.

    In the end...practice...practice...practice will be more a deciding factor than any other consideration.
     

    Boats

    Beer, Bikes n Boomsticks
    Mar 13, 2012
    4,073
    Howeird County
    Historically speaking, this is a physics question.

    Generally, smaller, lighter, faster rounds make better use of HP ammo than big slow ones.

    There is a theory that has some validity to it, in my experience, that large bore handgun rounds simply do not have the velocity behind them to make the most of modern expanding projectiles. Because their energy comes from the mass of the bullet rather than velocity.

    So take the old faves: 9mm and .45.

    The .45 was literally designed around being a FMJ design. Big, heavy and slow but still effective. Compared to the .38s and 9mms of the time it simply transferred more energy to the target.
    9mm was designed to be fast and light. 9mm FMJ has a history of putting holes in targets but not doing much damage on the way through. .45 JHP has a.long history of under-penetration. When fired into ballistic gel, one can see that 9mm JHP actually opens up to a bigger size than .45 JHP.

    IMHO, as someone else stated, there is no magic bullet designs. It depends on what you're working with. IMHO, .45 jhp is actually less effective than .45 FMJ. Whereas 9mm JHP is more effective than 9mm fmj
     
    Last edited:

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    Historically speaking, this is a physics question.

    Generally, smaller, lighter, faster rounds make better use of HP ammo than big slow ones.

    There is a theory that has some validity to it, in my experience, that large bore handgun rounds simply do not have the velocity behind them to make the most of modern expanding projectiles. Because their energy comes from the mass of the bullet rather than velocity.

    So take the old faves: 9mm and .45.

    The .45 was literally designed around being a FMJ design. Big, heavy and slow but still effective. Compared to the .38s and 9mms of the time it simply transferred more energy to the target.
    9mm was designed to be fast and light. 9mm JHP has a history of putting holes in targets but not doing much damage on the way through. .45 JHP has a.long history of under-penetration. When fired into ballistic gel, one can see that 9mm JHP actually opens up to a bigger size than .45 JHP.

    IMHO, as someone else stated, there is no magic bullet designs. It depends on what you're working with. IMHO, .45 jhp is actually less effective than .45 FMJ. Whereas 9mm JHP is more effective than 9mm fmj

    Back in the first few years of the 20th century when 9mm luger and 45ACP were designed, HP ammo existed, but was primarily used in rifles to reduce weight and increase velocity, handguns still used primarily cast Round nose bullets, or FMJ. Expanding designs do balance penetration with expansion, but momentum is primarily what dictates the volume of the wound channel, and in turn the diameter it can expand to while penetrating sufficiently. Energy can increase with velocity, and in turn increases resistance in soft tissue, generally reducing penetration and increasing expansion. Even still, 45 has more momentum,a 9mm load may or may not have more energy, and expansion is determined by bullet design. Modern 45 JHP loads, like 9mm JHP loads outperform their FMJ counterparts in most every aspect other than total penetration(both have several HP brands capable of FBI spec 12-18" in numerous expanding loads), both calibers benefit from the technology as shown by pretty much every gel test by every manufacturer. Generally 45's greater momentum does allow a larger expanded diameter than 9mm, not less, with some loads like the Federal HST expanding almost to an inch, and still meeting 12-18" FBI penetration standard.

    https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/handgun/default.aspx

    These are from Federal HST's 9mm in 124+p and 45ACP in 230gr. Both within a miniscule 8 FPE on bare gel and denim covered FBI spec testing, in both the 45 outperformed the 9mm load in both expanded diameter and penetration depth. The real difference with the latest theory is that while 45 is superior by less than 1/4" expansion, and .5 and 2" penetration depth respectively, the near double capacity increase and lighter recoil 9mm offers over 45 gives a greater chance of an incapacitating hit.

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    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,734
    Socialist State of Maryland
    Pro Tip - Make multiple shots whenever shooting through a windshield. A coworker was part of an extensive field study regarding windshields and the conclusion reached was - they go wherever they want without regards to the aiming theory frequently expressed. (Too many variables between vehicles, glass structure, curvature, etc.. for a hard, fast rule.) The same coworker actually had a lethal engagement through glass at another agency earlier on.

    Not to take away from ADR's experience but, in today's world, you can't do something like this unless you are on the job and then you still may not survive the aftermath.

    More people than ever are planning for protecting their castle and their person. That's good but you have to remember that YOU MUST ACCOUNT FOR EVERY BULLET FIRED. IANAL but I used to hand out with a few and they would tell you that an opposing attorney can make you look really bad on the stand if you are spraying bullets all over the place.

    Everyone I have ever trained has heard me harp on the fact that you need to know where every bullet is going. Even if the adrenaline is pumping and the other guy has a gun. If you miss or shoot a piece of steel that ricochets and kills someone, you are still responsible. Depending on State law, you may not be held criminally responsible but you will still be raked over the coals in civil court.

    Sorry for the preach but there have been several shootings of late that have given gun owners a bad rep. Each of us has a responsibility to keep this from happening within his/her own control.


    We now return control of the TV set until this time next week. :D
     

    Goldslammer

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 10, 2010
    710
    Brooklyn Park
    A Vietnam Vet that I used as an FFL many years ago, swore by FMJ.
    His opinion was he wanted penetration, through a heavy coat or flak vest, didn't care about the "Hollow point opening up".
    If he shot you through the heart, he wanted to make sure it went through!
    Can't disagree with a Combat Vet, but, I keep my 9mm loaded with 124gr Hydro Shocks.......
     

    camo556

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 29, 2021
    2,634
    A lot of people load FMJ because they trained with it, know it feeds reliably. Quite a few guntubers (Garand Thumb is one) carry FMJs because they carried them in the military.

    All you people who say FMJ is nuts, stand up and volunteer to be shot in the chest with it.

    <crickets>

    I did not think so. What no volunteers to be shot with FMJ 9mm??? cmon put your money where your internet mouth is.

    I carry crit duty and HST myself. But its 2022, you can **** whoever you want and carry whatever you want.

    The reality is hollow points or not. 9mm is a weak ass round. If you want guaranteed stopage every time, I recommend soft point 30-06 out of a 22" barrel.
     

    TheOriginalMexicanBob

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 2, 2017
    32,178
    Sun City West, AZ
    There's an argument that goes the 9mm needs a HP to be effective...where a .45 is already large and heavy enough. I don't know how accurate the reality is but I would certainly not want to be shot with a .22 Short much less a 9mm, .35, .38 or any other caliber regardless of bullet design.
     

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