Working on Pistol Load Accuracy

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  • Magnumite

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 17, 2007
    6,564
    Harford County, Maryland
    So, I'm curious about how its suggested to run higher with W231 and a lower velocity is working well with Bullseye. I"m willing to go back up to try heavier loads but I"m just curious about it.
    When I ran 5.6 W231 with the Copper washed bullets I noticed muzzle blast from the compensator. I was curious cause I would think powder burning past the muzzle would create variability, No?

    I have enough Powder coated SWC to try some various loads of W231 as well as load up a box or two with the 4.0 Bullseye.

    John mentioned the nitro in the Bullseye. This would be a double base powder. When the powder burns it does so quickly. This builds pressure fast which pushes the bullet metal at the base of the bullet into tight contact with the case then the bore, more effectively sealing the bore. This is a phenomenon known as obturation. It also swells the case walls more tightly against the chamber wall (dependent on chamber size). This prevents flame cutting and powder erosion along the sides of the bullet.

    This essentially was that first big lesson in reloading I mentioned. Light charges of Green Dot even with a soft swaged dished based bullet was a disaster for accuracy. I used Bullseye the next time around and the groups reduced to 1/3 the size of the Green Dot loads with that same bullet.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    The chemical and mechanical engineering behind the internal ballistics of powder burn rate , energy density, pressure curves , etc is a major rabbit hole in itself . By all means dive in if you wish a separate hobby in itself .

    But at the nuts & bolts level just accept as a given that certain powders give particularly good results with certain bullet weights at certain velocities . Bullseye is The OG canister powder , and with 120 plus years of knowledge base , it is a very well known quantity .

    What velocity do * You * wish to try for ? We don't know , all depends upon your interpretation of your parameters, you tell us . But 200gr loads over the last 110yrs do tend to cluster in two places :

    Nominal 775fps , but typical range of actual vels of 700- 775 fps . Excellent absolute accuracy . Downside - may or may not reliability cycle with stock/ standard recoil springs .

    Nominal 900fps . IPSC major , hunting and defense in pre jhp era . Can be bumped up to 950- ish fps with most powders .

    FWIW , John M. Browning invented the .45acp ctg to be 200gr @ 900-ish fps . It was subsequent US Army requests that brought about the 230gr .
     
    Last edited:

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    BTW, USPSA major is now 825 fps with a 200 grain bullet. 165 power factor.

    It used to be 175 power factor, which is 875 with a 200 grain bullet. So loading to 900 fps gave you some wiggle room when being chronoed.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    With the powder and primer shortages being what they are today, I recommend that, if you have a good load, to hold off testing other powders until they become available again.


    Now, what is the fun in that? :)

    I"m an Engineer and by definition a bit of a Tinkerer. Many of my projects are "so that I can find out, experience or just cause I think I can". So the time spent in the acquisition of knowledge and the personal experience of failure and hopefully eventually success is what I enjoy. I can't thank all you guys who have contributed constructive information enough.

    Today I ran 5.3-5.6gr W231 w/ the PC SWC bullets as well as 4.4-4.7gr with the same bullets.
    I found REALLY nice repeatability at 4.6&4.7gr and the velocity (5 shot samples were both for some reason close (800/806fps) which makes me wonder if my scale was drifting or something.

    They were 5 shot groups with 1.8" & 1.6" respectively. I'd like to try 4.8gr just to see if the 4.7 is in the middle of that node.

    at the upper end 5.3gr was not bad at all and around 2.3" but opened up quickly beyond that.

    I ran the 4.0 Bullseye through my Cheaper ATI 1911 which previously was getting 5" groups on my reloads and I got 3" groups so that is a noticable improvement.
    I'm nothing but happy with the Kimber and have had ZERO feed/eject issues even with the lighter loads. Only thing I notice on the lighter loads is where it ejects is less consistent. This is on the stand though and not single handed like I plan to shoot. This pistol had a definite trigger job done to it and I don't know what spring is in it now or what other work the guy had done to it.

    For this 4.7gr W231 Load, why is there ALWAYS that one Flyer? That would have been all touching holes except for that one. Probably my fault though.
     

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    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Did you weight each case, bullet and charge? You did say you are an engineer after all. :lol:

    Dammit! forgot to minimize case variations. (does that make a difference with Pistol? My 1MOA 223 I always use same case brands (usually LC)
    I did not even look for the same stamp on cases.

    Bullets were within 1grain of each other pre and post powder coat
    Charges were weighed individually (as I do for load testing).


    I can weigh all my same mfg stamped cases and load them into the magazine all in the same rotation too!

    Come to think of it, I need to do my Lethal Weapon Danny Glover "Murtaugh" neck stretch before each shot.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Starting to turn back to 9mm.
    Using 124gr Lee mold and powder coating them
    Reserving my W231 and especially the Bullseye for the 45 load I have, I'm looking to use the rest of my Power Pistol Powder on 9mm

    I have notes that I tried a load of 5.2gr of PP but it was so so with a PCC. I will admit I was not inspecting or even sorting out the bullets back then like I am now. (sorting to 1gr while doing the load development)
    I'll start out with 5.0 and work up to 5.4 and see how it goes with 2 different 9mm pistols (Taurus PT99 with target sights and Poly G19 clone with red dot). My notes show that the 5.2gr was 1075fps @ an OAL of 1.125" but I'm not sure that was from a pistol or a PCC, my notes do not show it.

    If anyone has any info, I'll be glad to listen
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,734
    Socialist State of Maryland
    Your confused cause I CONFUSED YOU (but not on purpose)
    Correct link:
    https://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-356-125-2r.html
    I'm always using 124gr load data and calling it 124gr is my mistake.
    BTW, they come out 125gr after powder coating.
    Thx

    I didn't think you were using a 102gn bullet. Anyway, here are the two loads I use with that bullet.

    For Powerpistol, I use 5.4 grains and for WW231, I use 4.3 grains. The COAL I use is 1.100. You won't find that in any of todays books but it feeds a PC bullet better with no sticking in the lead. There are several 125gn jacketed loads that have a shorter COAL and use more powder so it is not a safety issue. Plus, it is still a lead bullet. The Powerpistol gives better accuracy at 50 yards but I rarely shoot 9mm at fifty yards.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Ok
    I’ll expand that to 5.6 on the upper end with PP


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    So, I built up loads 5.2-5.6gr @ 1.100"
    Started w/ the 5.2 and then went to 5.3.

    Accuracy was not great but I stopped after 5.4 cause the velocity was higher than I expected.
    5.2gr : 1221 fps avg
    5.3gr : 1233 fps avg

    I felt the velocities were high so I stopped there so I could discuss here. All my other 9mm w/ 125gr PC bullets were around 1100fps or less.
    My existing load I had run previously of Power Pistol was 5.2gr @ 1.125" Alox lubed and 1075-1100fps

    I had just received a custom barrel bushing for the Kimber from EGW.
    I ran it with my existing loads and did not notice any HUGE difference but I'm sure I'd have to do a very thorough test.
    I had run all my load testing with individually weighed bullets @ 196gr coated. today I took the new bushing and ran 5 @ 195gr and 5 @ 197gr just to see how much bullet weight matters. This was with 4.0gr Bullseye
    10 rounds and this tight of a group, I can't complain
    25Yards, target sights, upper front reciever and hand resting on a pistol rest
    b1cb5b3499e56ccaf1df7b27808b1727.jpg
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,734
    Socialist State of Maryland
    Nice job with the .45. If you add a little lead to the mix it will make your bullets heavier.

    As for the 9mm, try working down the ladder. Guns are like women, they all have their own personality. ;)
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,163
    Hint: It's not that. :lol:

    When I used to make Bullseye guns, I would lap the bushing to the barrel so that you needed a wrench to take off the bushing. It isn't just the clearance between bushing and barrel, it is the direction of the clearance.

    The barrel has to have clearance to be pushed up into the locking lugs and when pulled down and out of battery. Don't do anything, including wasting more ammo until you read the books I am sending. Then you can order a bushing from Brownells and any other tools you may need. I will tell you that I have used fine wet/dry paper and a dowl to fit some bushings when I didn't have access to my tools. You can do it the same way as long as you understand where you want to remove metal on the bushing.

    I'm always interested in learning. What books do you recommend?
     

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