Philly police and Open Carry

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  • swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,394
    Westminster USA
    The following directive went to Philly police on 9-22. Maybe this will reduce the harassment of OC'ers who are legally Open Carrying because they have a CC permit that PA recognizes.

    Police directive sent to all districts regarding open carry in Philadelphia, PA Sept 22, 2010

    GENERAL: 1272 09/22/10 12:53:20

    TO : ALL COMMANDING OFFICERS / DEPARTMENT HEADS
    SUBJECT : FIREARM OPEN CARRY LAW IN PHILADELPHIA

    1. DIRECTIVE 137, ENTITLED “FIREARMS” IS BEING UPDATED
    CONCERNING THE PENNSYLVANIA OPEN CARRY LAWS
    REGARDING THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA. THIS TELETYPE
    REFLECTS THE NEW POLICY AS IT WILL APPEAR IN THE
    DIRECTIVE.

    2. ALL OFFICERS SHOULD BE AWARE THAT PENNSYLVANIA IS
    CONSIDERED AN “OPEN CARRY STATE” WITH THE EXCEPTION OF
    PHILADELPHIA. IT IS IMPORTANT TO DEFINE A FEW TERMS USED,
    WHICH ARE AS FOLLOWS:

    “OPEN CARRY” REFERS TO THE ACT OF OPENLY AND VISIBLY
    CARRYING A FIREARM ON ONE’S PERSON.

    “OPEN CARRY STATE” REFERS TO A STATE THAT ALLOWS
    PEOPLE TO OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRY A FIREARM ON ONE’S
    PERSON WITHOUT A SPECIAL LICENSE OR PERMIT.

    “CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE” REFERS TO A SPECIFIC
    LICENSE ISSUED TO AN INDIVIDUAL AUTHORIZING THE PERSON
    TO CARRY A FIREARM CONCEALED ON HIS OR HER PERSON OR
    VEHICLE.


    3. IN PHILADELPHIA, UNLIKE ANY OTHER PART OF THE STATE, FOR
    ANY PERSON TO LAWFULLY, OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRY A
    FIREARM, THAT PERSON MUST HAVE A CONCEALED CARRY
    FIREARMS LICENSE. SO, IN PHILADELPHIA, IF A PERSON HAS A
    VALID CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE, HE OR SHE CAN
    LEGALLY CARRY A FIREARM EITHER OPEN AND VISIBLE OR
    CONCEALED.

    4. AN OFFICER ENCOUNTERING A PERSON CARRYING A FIREARM
    OPENLY IN PHILADELPHIA SHOULD FOR THE SAFTEY OF PUBLIC
    INVESTIGATE AS A POSSIBLE VUFA VIOLATION.

    A. SINCE A SEPARATE LICENSE IS REQUIRED IN PHILADELPHIA
    AND IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY OFFICER TO KNOW WHO DOES
    AND DOES NOT HAVE A VALID CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE, IT
    IS ENTIRELY REASONALBE FOR OFFICERS TO TEMPORARILY
    DETAIN AND INVESTIGATE ANY INDIVIDUAL CARRYING A
    FIREARM EXPOSED TO DETERMINE IF THE PERSON IS
    OPERATING WITH THE LAW.

    B. IMMEDIATLEY SEIZE ANY FIREARMS FOR OFFICER SAFETY
    DURING THE STOP AND UNLOAD THE FIREARMS IF POSSIBLE,
    BUT ONLY IF IT CAN BE DONE SAFELY.

    C. A 75-48A MUST BE COMPLETED AND THE BASIS FOR THE STOP
    WOULD BE A “POSSIBLE VUFA VIOLATION”


    D. ONCE THE OFFICER RECEIVES CONFIRMATION THAT THE
    CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE IS VALID, AND THERE ARE NO
    OTHER OFFENSE OR VIOLATIONS BEING INVESTIGATED,
    OFFICERS SHOULD RETURN THE FIREARM AND AMMUNITION
    BACK TO THE INDIVIDUAL AT THE END OF THE STOP.

    E. HOWEVER, IF THE INDIVIDUAL CANNOT PRODUCE A VALID
    CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE OR THE LICENSE IS NOT VALID
    (I.E. EXPIRED OR REVOKED), PROBABLE CAUSE THEN EXISTS
    TO ARREST THE INDIVIDUAL FOR THE VUFAVIOLATION AND
    TRANSPORT THE INDIVIDUAL TO THE DIVISIONAL DETECTIVES
    FOR PROCESSING. THE FIREARM AND AMMUNITION SHOULD
    BE PLACED ON A PROPERTY RECEIPT (75-3) AND MARKED AS
    “ EVIDENCE”. A 75-48A FOR THE INITIAL STOP MUST BE
    PREPARD ALONG WITH A 75-48 FOR THE VUFA ARREST.
     

    jdramsey

    Troll hunter.
    Aug 5, 2009
    498
    St. Mary's Co. MD
    Don't know about that. Sounds more like they are being instructed to harass anybody seen with a firearm. Stop them, take their gun from them, unload it, and then investigate the validity of their permit.
     

    joppaj

    Sheepdog
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Apr 11, 2008
    46,459
    MD
    At least it's a clear policy. I don't see much ambiguity in that one.
     

    Boondock Saint

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 11, 2008
    24,372
    White Marsh
    Seems reasonable. You need a permit to OC in Philly. How else is an officer to know if you possess a valid license?

    Of course, I'd like it if the directive stated that the OCer is innocent until proven guilty and as such will not have his/her property confiscated until a valid license cannot be produced, but hey, it's a step forward from where they were prior to that memo.
     

    jonnyl

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 23, 2009
    5,969
    Frederick
    On the plus side, valid permit holders should get their property back immediately. I just don't get the concept of seeing someone doing something and acting on the assumption that they're breaking the law unless they can prove otherwise. Do they pull people over on the assumption of driving without a license?

    Does anyone foresee brandishing charges while the person is reloading their gun and racking the slide on the middle of the sidewalk?
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,394
    Westminster USA
    i am not prepared financially to assert my right if I am going to get a brandishing charge as another poster mentioned. You're right but from a practical viewpoint I'd just reload and rechamber out of sight of the cop.
     

    joppaj

    Sheepdog
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Apr 11, 2008
    46,459
    MD
    I'd probably just say to him, "Officer, I'm going to reload this now and then reholster."
     

    boricuamaximus

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 27, 2008
    6,237
    At least it's a clear policy. I don't see much ambiguity in that one.

    :thumbsup:

    Basically, it states that if you open carry in philly an LEO can stop you and check your license. Going to go out on a limb but it seems reasonable to me.

    Like in AZ and their criminal element of illegals since there is not CCW permit system they cannot be charge with that infraction. They can be charged with being a prohibited person.

    Personally, I think it's good to give another charge to people that are commiting crimes and make sure they serve their sentences.
     

    montoya32

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jun 16, 2010
    11,311
    Harford Co
    Why don't they stop every hispanic looking person and check for legal citizenship, or stop every wehicle and make sure all drivers have a valid driver's license? This is complete bullsh*t.

    This isn't a polite, "Hey, do you have a permit for that?" type stop. To seize the firearm, unload it and then run a "75-48A" is absurd. How long do you think this will take? Yet again penalizing the law abiding citizen. How would you like to be stopped in a public place, have an officer take your weapon, unload it(ammo probably falling all over the place), detain you while he completes his paperwork and checks your permit status?

    Wonder if you can ask to see the officer's certificate from completing his training at the academy?


    Also, why does the cop have to confiscate the weapon and unload it? Let the owner remove the mag and any round in the chamber in view of the officer.

    :mad54::envy::mad54::envy::mad54::envy::mad54:
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    Seems reasonable. You need a permit to OC in Philly. How else is an officer to know if you possess a valid license?

    Of course, I'd like it if the directive stated that the OCer is innocent until proven guilty and as such will not have his/her property confiscated until a valid license cannot be produced, but hey, it's a step forward from where they were prior to that memo.

    You need a license to drive a car too, I guess it would be reasonable for them to pull over every motorist without any more cause than operating a vehichle to make sure their driver's license isn't expired. Before the memo, the PPD was in open defiance of state law, the memo leaves them operating just barely within state law, but still with an open invitation to stop, detain and harass law abiding gun owners.
     

    Boondock Saint

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 11, 2008
    24,372
    White Marsh
    You need a license to drive a car too, I guess it would be reasonable for them to pull over every motorist without any more cause than operating a vehichle to make sure their driver's license isn't expired. Before the memo, the PPD was in open defiance of state law, the memo leaves them operating just barely within state law, but still with an open invitation to stop, detain and harass law abiding gun owners.

    A valid point and I can't say that I have much with which to counter it.

    It's not an ideal scenario by any means, but those who choose to OC in Philadelphia are better off than they were previously. Baby steps and such.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    What is wrong with being able to check to see if someonne is legal or not to carry openly within their city limits?? Anyone worth their CCW permit won't carry openly anyway. So might as well be able to check those who aren't legal to carry that way? People say that cops are always reactive and not proactive. This allows Officers more contact with the public in an official capacity to run for warrants.
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,365
    SoMD / West PA
    What is wrong with being able to check to see if someonne is legal or not to carry openly within their city limits?? Anyone worth their CCW permit won't carry openly anyway. So might as well be able to check those who aren't legal to carry that way? People say that cops are always reactive and not proactive. This allows Officers more contact with the public in an official capacity to run for warrants.

    http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=43600&highlight=Wisconsin
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    , or stop every wehicle and make sure all drivers have a valid driver's license? This is complete bullsh*t.

    This isn't a polite, "Hey, do you have a permit for that?" type stop. To seize the firearm, unload it and then run a "75-48A" is absurd. How long do you think this will take? Yet again penalizing the law abiding citizen. How would you like to be stopped in a public place, have an officer take your weapon, unload it(ammo probably falling all over the place), detain you while he completes his paperwork and checks your permit status?

    Wonder if you can ask to see the officer's certificate from completing his training at the academy?


    Also, why does the cop have to confiscate the weapon and unload it? Let the owner remove the mag and any round in the chamber in view of the officer.

    :mad54::envy::mad54::envy::mad54::envy::mad54:
    Why don't they stop every hispanic looking person and check for legal citizenship
    What does this have to do with immigration?

    make sure all drivers have a valid driver's license?
    If you stop every driver, it is legal, you can. Would you like that gridlock in your city?

    How long do you think this will take?
    Doesn't take long to get someone's name and DOB and call it in. Depends on how much of a prick the person is is directly related to how long. Usually there is a "computer delay" lol

    have an officer take your weapon, unload it(ammo probably falling all over the place),

    How much ammo do you have fall out of any of your pistols when you unload it?

    The cop HAS to unload it for his and public safety. If you have never done the job, you aren't qualified to speak on Officer/subject contact involving weapons.

    And I thought I was an angry one :) :innocent6:
     

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