Philly police and Open Carry

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  • Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,353
    SoMD / West PA
    Why don't they stop every hispanic looking person and check for legal citizenship
    What does this have to do with immigration?

    make sure all drivers have a valid driver's license?
    If you stop every driver, it is legal, you can. Would you like that gridlock in your city?

    How long do you think this will take?
    Doesn't take long to get someone's name and DOB and call it in. Depends on how much of a prick the person is is directly related to how long. Usually there is a "computer delay" lol

    have an officer take your weapon, unload it(ammo probably falling all over the place),

    How much ammo do you have fall out of any of your pistols when you unload it?

    The cop HAS to unload it for his and public safety. If you have never done the job, you aren't qualified to speak on Officer/subject contact involving weapons.

    And I thought I was an angry one :) :innocent6:

    Don't see any bias in that response at all. :rolleyes:
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,407
    Glen Burnie

    This gives a cop the legal right to make contact. A stop in an official capacity, the subject has to provide identification. " I see you displaying a weapon, I am officially interviewing you, I get your ID " period.


    That is wisconsin. I am at work and have not read the whole story. But let's arm chair what I think you are saying and it will clear up what I am saying.

    We are in philly. I am a cop. You and a friend are eating a cheesteak at Pat's. You have open carry, your friend doesn't. I approach you and ask you for id to see if you are legal to carry with your CCW. Your friend isn't carrying openly so I do not need to see their id to see if they are in violation because i have no reasonable suspicion or probable cause.

    I assume the wisconsin case is saying the cops asked the others for their ID's? Probably no reason to. No need to in the situation I posted at Pat's.
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,353
    SoMD / West PA
    This gives a cop the legal right to make contact. A stop in an official capacity, the subject has to provide identification. " I see you displaying a weapon, I am officially interviewing you, I get your ID " period.


    That is wisconsin. I am at work and have not read the whole story. But let's arm chair what I think you are saying and it will clear up what I am saying.

    We are in philly. I am a cop. You and a friend are eating a cheesteak at Pat's. You have open carry, your friend doesn't. I approach you and ask you for id to see if you are legal to carry with your CCW. Your friend isn't carrying openly so I do not need to see their id to see if they are in violation because i have no reasonable suspicion or probable cause.

    I assume the wisconsin case is saying the cops asked the others for their ID's? Probably no reason to. No need to in the situation I posted at Pat's.

    Pennsylvania people are freedom loving, and don't role over like the sheeple here in MD.

    What I am saying, is expect more of these types of articles, until Philly drops their harrassment.
     

    ezliving

    Besieger
    Oct 9, 2008
    4,590
    Undisclosed Secure Location
    It should be presumed that someone open carrying a handgun in Philly knows they need a permit to do so and has the required permit. Stopping everyone with a handgun is harassment, and 4th Amendment and 2nd Amendment infringements.

    The "new" police policy (4A and 4B) can't stand up to strict scrutiny. Where is the "reasonable articulable suspicion" to justify a "Terry Stop?"
     

    jonnyl

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 23, 2009
    5,969
    Frederick
    ...
    We are in philly. I am a cop. You and a friend are eating a cheesteak at Pat's. You have open carry, your friend doesn't. I approach you and ask you for id to see if you are legal to carry with your CCW. Your friend isn't carrying openly so I do not need to see their id to see if they are in violation because i have no reasonable suspicion or probable cause.
    ...

    I guess I'm still fuzzy on what about eating a cheese steak would make you suspicious or give you probable cause?
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,394
    Westminster USA
    It should be presumed that someone open carrying a handgun in Philly knows they need a permit to do so and has the required permit. Stopping everyone with a handgun is harassment, and 4th Amendment and 2nd Amendment infringements.

    The "new" police policy can't stand up to strict scrutiny. Where is the "reasonable articulable suspicion" to justify a "Terry Stop?"
    The RAS is a permit is required to OC. so it's legal to check. Not a 4th amendment violation. Courts have held an officer can disarm a person during a temporary detention. That's what this is. There is no search
     

    ezliving

    Besieger
    Oct 9, 2008
    4,590
    Undisclosed Secure Location
    The RAS is a permit is required to OC. so it's legal to check. Not a 4th amendment violation. Courts have held an officer can disarm a person during a temporary detention. That's what this is. There is no search
    That's profiling and unconstitutional. Where is the "reasonable articulable suspicion" to justify a "Terry Stop?"

    You need a reason to pull over a driver of a car; you can't just do "license checks." (And driving is not a "fundamental constitutional right.")

    "Your papers, please," doesn't fly.
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    I dont see anything in that Memo regarding Other States Permits, and reciprocity. Philly is gonna lock up every Non-Resident Carrier since the letter "Does not define it"
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    It comes down to weither a person is presumed guilty without any evidence whatsoever that they are comitting a crime, and weither or not open carry itself satisfies reasonable suspicion that a crime is in progress. In most of the rest of the state it is a definite no, Philly drags their heels kicking and screaming on every single gun rights issue. The state law is clear in that philly must follow the state gun laws, which they have repeatedly ignored in the past and present. This is an issue more so in procedure and policy than law, more or less, how much can they F-with gun owners before the state slaps them on the wrist. They are claiming that the presence of a firearm, openly carried gives reasonable suspicion that the law is being violated. The issue for us is at what point is this considered harassment, presuming guilt and requiring proof of innocence with no other factors that would garner suspicion is harassment in my book.
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    It comes down to weither a person is presumed guilty without any evidence whatsoever that they are comitting a crime, and weither or not open carry itself satisfies reasonable suspicion that a crime is in progress. In most of the rest of the state it is a definite no, Philly drags their heels kicking and screaming on every single gun rights issue. The state law is clear in that philly must follow the state gun laws, which they have repeatedly ignored in the past and present. This is an issue more so in procedure and policy than law, more or less, how much can they F-with gun owners before the state slaps them on the wrist. They are claiming that the presence of a firearm, openly carried gives reasonable suspicion that the law is being violated. The issue for us is at what point is this considered harassment, presuming guilt and requiring proof of innocence with no other factors that would garner suspicion is harassment in my book.

    :thumbsup:
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,407
    Glen Burnie
    It should be presumed that someone open carrying a handgun in Philly knows they need a permit to do so and has the required permit. Stopping everyone with a handgun is harassment, and 4th Amendment and 2nd Amendment infringements.

    The "new" police policy (4A and 4B) can't stand up to strict scrutiny. Where is the "reasonable articulable suspicion" to justify a "Terry Stop?"

    BECAUSE THE LAW TELLS THEM TO DO IT. COPS do not make law, they just try to follow the rules like anyone else at a job. Do you follow the rules at your job? They only articulation they need is that they saw the person carrying a weapon out in the open. Sorry, no suspicion in this case because they see it.

    That would not be a terry stop. A terry frisk is when the officer pats a suspect down through their outer clothing to look for a weapon.
    Cops don't make laws, they just try to enforce them. Don't shoot the messengers. Geezus
     

    ezliving

    Besieger
    Oct 9, 2008
    4,590
    Undisclosed Secure Location
    BECAUSE THE LAW TELLS THEM TO DO IT. COPS do not make law, they just try to follow the rules like anyone else at a job. Do you follow the rules at your job? They only articulation they need is that they saw the person carrying a weapon out in the open. Sorry, no suspicion in this case because they see it.

    That would not be a terry stop. A terry frisk is when the officer pats a suspect down through their outer clothing to look for a weapon.
    Cops don't make laws, they just try to enforce them. Don't shoot the messengers. Geezus
    I can see you have a conflict with the inconvenient "innocent until proven guilty" thing. Guilt must be proven, not innocence.

    Carrying a firearm openly in PA is lawful, even in Philly (with a LTCF.)

    The police need a "reasonable articulable suspicion" that a crime has been committed to even stop a person, let alone search and detain him.

    And, believe it or not, police "rules" must be lawful, even when inconvenient.
     

    ezliving

    Besieger
    Oct 9, 2008
    4,590
    Undisclosed Secure Location

    jonnyl

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 23, 2009
    5,969
    Frederick
    BECAUSE THE LAW TELLS THEM TO DO IT. COPS do not make law, they just try to follow the rules like anyone else at a job. Do you follow the rules at your job? They only articulation they need is that they saw the person carrying a weapon out in the open. Sorry, no suspicion in this case because they see it.

    That would not be a terry stop. A terry frisk is when the officer pats a suspect down through their outer clothing to look for a weapon.
    Cops don't make laws, they just try to enforce them. Don't shoot the messengers. Geezus

    Shooting the messenger would definitely be suspicious;)

    The problem I have isn't with the LEO's following their directives. It's the directives themselves. Particularly this part:
    4. AN OFFICER ENCOUNTERING A PERSON CARRYING A FIREARM
    OPENLY IN PHILADELPHIA SHOULD FOR THE SAFTEY OF PUBLIC
    INVESTIGATE AS A POSSIBLE VUFA VIOLATION.

    • Citizens are allowed to OC for personal defense
    • If you see a citizen doing this you should investigate, even in the absence of any reason to believe that they may be breaking the law.

    I just see that as a conflict.

    I get that it's better than before and will probably help keep some folks out of the pokey that may have otherwise had a trip there. But the fact is that Philly doesn't like the OC law and is going to make life difficult for people that don't do things their way. That's just wrong.
     

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