Is my thinking wrong? 2.0

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  • dmable44

    Active Member
    Jul 4, 2018
    117
    Got a lot of good feedback and info in my last thread about the HQL. This time on my way to work I was thinking about the whole HBAR thing. So I figured I’d start another “Is my thinking wrong” thread on this.

    My understanding and according the MSP website of the HBAR law MD has is that a barrel has to be “marked or marketed as HBAR”. They give no or even mention a nominal dimension or physical diameter to go by which is illogical (big surprise) to me.

    I’ve seen a lot of threads along the lines of “I really want X barrel but it’s not marked or marketed as HBAR...” I’ve also been browsing the EE and Tacswap with interest in barrels and uppers but they aren’t HBARs. So I got to thinking, this law is dumb and seems to be very vague and for a lack of a better term “fix”.

    So here’s my thinking: If the barrel isn’t marked or marketed as HBAR, make it so that it is. Get a machinists stamp set and stamp it yourself, get someone to laser etch it into the barrel, etc.

    Seems easy enough to me. So I talked to a lawyer friend that is adept with firearms about that. He said doing that technically meets the “marked as” requirement, especially since they leave it so vague*. What’s stopping people from doing that anyway?

    To sum up my thinking: The HBAR thing is dumb and easy to “fix”. Get a barrel, stamp or laser etch HBAR into it and you’re good to go.

    Is my thinking wrong?

    *Dont take this as legitimate legal advice*
     

    Ranchero50

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 15, 2012
    5,411
    Hagerstown MD
    Yes, it's dumb but it is what it is.

    Personally, after hating a nose heavy 16" carbine gas system HBAR barrel I installed the colt heavy profile SOCOM 14.5" barrel with a longer A2 flash hider. Best thing is it still feels balanced with a bayonet installed and is very ergonomic without it.
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    Your thinking isn't wrong.

    However, the "catch" here is that the "marked or marketed" thing isn't in the statute. The only thing the statute says is that the Colt AR-15 and it's copies are banned, with the exception of the Colt Sporter HBAR. It doesn't define what "HBAR" is at all. The marked or marketed thing comes from a determination made by the MSP firearms division. That determination isn't law, and can be changed at any time in the future if MSP decides to change it. It's silly, but it is what it is.
     

    dmable44

    Active Member
    Jul 4, 2018
    117
    Your thinking isn't wrong.

    However, the "catch" here is that the "marked or marketed" thing isn't in the statute. The only thing the statute says is that the Colt AR-15 and it's copies are banned, with the exception of the Colt Sporter HBAR. It doesn't define what "HBAR" is at all. The marked or marketed thing comes from a determination made by the MSP firearms division. That determination isn't law, and can be changed at any time in the future if MSP decides to change it. It's silly, but it is what it is.

    Sorry if I’m misunderstanding this but youre saying you don’t have to have a barrel that is marked or marketed as HBAR according to the law? The MSP just wants you to?
     

    Ranchero50

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 15, 2012
    5,411
    Hagerstown MD
    Find the actual law in the COMAR and read it. The Colt AR15 and copies are banned. The Colt Sporter HBAR used in target shooting matches is not and by extension the copies of the Colt Sporter HBAR are not banned. MSP interpreted the law to add the HBAR definition as labelled on the barrel or listed in the sales information. It's imperfect and I hope the legislature does not change it.
     

    PowPow

    Where's the beef?
    Nov 22, 2012
    4,712
    Howard County
    Find the actual law in the COMAR and read it. The Colt AR15 and copies are banned. The Colt Sporter HBAR used in target shooting matches is not and by extension the copies of the Colt Sporter HBAR are not banned. MSP interpreted the law to add the HBAR definition as labelled on the barrel or listed in the sales information. It's imperfect and I hope the legislature does not change it.

    When they do, and they will if we keep getting steamrolled, there will be no doubt about which ones. It will be all of them. Question then is, who will comply?
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    Sorry if I’m misunderstanding this but youre saying you don’t have to have a barrel that is marked or marketed as HBAR according to the law? The MSP just wants you to?

    That is correct.

    Basically, the way that it works is the law says "xyz." Then there is a governmental agency somewhere who comes up with regulations that define what "xyz" means, and who enforces the law. In this case, the MSP Fireams Division is the agency who gets to put in and enforce the regulations around the Maryland firearms statutes.

    What it says in the law (with my reformatting and abridgement to make it less complicated and more brief) is this:

    All so called "assault weapons" are banned. An assault weapon is either defined by being a "copycat assault weapon" (by the OAL and feature tests) or it is any of a named list of weapons, which are in MD PSC §5–101 (r)(2).

    This includes:
    (xv) Colt AR–15, CAR–15, and all imitations except Colt AR–15 Sporter H–BAR rifle;

    In other words, all AR-15 rifles are banned unless they are a Colt AR-15 Sporter H-Bar. Originally, that meant one specific model of rifle which lacked a lot of the "evil features" and was commonly used for shooting competitions. However, since there are legal issues around banning one specific product by one company, and since MSP are the ones who get to decide particulars of the definitions and how to enforce this, they decided this:

    That since "all imitations" of the AR are banned, then "all imitations" of the "Colt AR-15 Sporter H-Bar" are also not banned. Their current definition of something that is an imitation of that rifle is anything that is marked HBAR or sold or advertised as such by the manufacturer.

    The law itself says nothing anywhere about what defines a copy of the Colt AR-15 Sporter H-Bar rifle, so MSP decided that's what it means. This is why you can currently buy rifles from Colt that have a SOCOM barrel profile (with the M204 cuts) in Maryland, because MSP says "if the manufacturer says it's an HBAR, then it is legal" and Colt's marketing for that barrel calls it a "SOCOM 14.5" heavy barrel."
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Bottom line is, until it ends up in court, there is no clear info on what is legal and not legal.

    Personally, I think it would be difficult for the State to bring a case over non-HBAR when the barrel in question is as least the same diameter, or larger than a Colt HBAR Match Sporter barrel at all points.
     

    fred55

    Senior
    Aug 24, 2016
    1,772
    Spotsylvania Co. VA
    I know I’m preaching to the choir here. The law is intentionally ambiguous to allow prosecution of who the “law” wishes. And the risk of disobedience, or stamping your own, may be costly. It’s a BS law and hopefully gets overturned in the S.C. in the near future. That “shall not be infringed” is not ambiguous! fred55
     

    dmable44

    Active Member
    Jul 4, 2018
    117
    This particular law is ambiguous because the people who wrote it didn't know what they were doing.

    Unfortunately that’s what happens 9/10 times. I’m all for someone being against whatever they wish, they have a right. It’s what makes this country so great. But please for ****’s sake be educated and know everything there is to know about what you are against.
     

    RoadDawg

    Nos nostraque Deo
    Dec 6, 2010
    94,189
    And
    Sorry if I’m misunderstanding this but youre saying you don’t have to have a barrel that is marked or marketed as HBAR according to the law? The MSP just wants you to?
    NOT TRUE... well not totally.

    The law DOES say the barrel must be HBAR. THAT much matters. It IS the law.

    However...

    MSP has taken it upon themselves to assign a definition which is policy, not law. That definition states it must be “stamped” and or “marketed as” an HBAR.

    So... don’t be the test case by attempting to purchase a non “stamped” or “marketed as HBAR” barreled .223/5.56 AR.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    This particular law is ambiguous because the people who wrote it didn't know what they were doing.

    Exactly.

    They took the 95 assault weapon ban list, and just used it.

    There are firearms on that list that never made it into production and public sale.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    The law DOES say the barrel must be HBAR. THAT much matters. It IS the law.

    Not exactly.

    The LAW says, the Colt HBAR Match Sporter is not banned. Another part of the law says that copies of banned firearms are also banned.

    It does not actually say that copies of the HBAR Match Sporter are not banned. But since it doesn't say they are, the copies provision carries over.

    The AG issued a letter that says a copy is where any single part can be swapped between the original and the copy, and both firearms are fully functional.

    So the INTERPRETATION has been that an AR with a heavy barrel is not banned.

    But, as has been mentioned, nothing has been tested in court.
     

    rbird7282

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 6, 2012
    18,542
    Columbia
    Not exactly.



    The LAW says, the Colt HBAR Match Sporter is not banned. Another part of the law says that copies of banned firearms are also banned.



    It does not actually say that copies of the HBAR Match Sporter are not banned. But since it doesn't say they are, the copies provision carries over.



    The AG issued a letter that says a copy is where any single part can be swapped between the original and the copy, and both firearms are fully functional.



    So the INTERPRETATION has been that an AR with a heavy barrel is not banned.



    But, as has been mentioned, nothing has been tested in court.



    I thought a copy had to have ALL parts interchangeable to be considered as such, not just any one part.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    K-Romulus

    Suburban Commando
    Mar 15, 2007
    2,427
    NE MoCO
    I thought a copy had to have ALL parts interchangeable to be considered as such, not just any one part.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



    That is my recollection for MD; it was *MA* where the AG declared that any swappable part = “banned fiream”


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    Exactly.

    They took the 95 assault weapon ban list, and just used it.

    That's a common misconception. The MD "regulated firearms" list, which contained the HBAR exception, predates the Federal list.

    The AG issued a letter that says a copy is where any single part can be swapped between the original and the copy, and both firearms are fully functional.

    No, and no. The MSP issued a letter that says that they consider a "copy" to be a firearm which is both cosmetically similar to and which has completely interchangeable parts with a named banned firearm.

    I thought a copy had to have ALL part

    That's correct.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    I thought a copy had to have ALL parts interchangeable to be considered as such, not just any one part.

    Take part X off of each gun, swap them, and they both work.

    ANY single part.

    If you exchange ALL the parts, you still have the same two rifles. :lol2::lol2:
     

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