FFL license in Maryland

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  • boisepaw

    boisepaw
    Jan 5, 2015
    380
    Eastern shore, MD
    I just got approved for my C&R FFL license but now I'm thinking about getting the regular FFL license. I like the idea of expanding my hobby a little bit and being more active in buying and selling guns and, as best I could tell from the BATF website, if I am selling firearms profitably I really need to consider getting the regular FFL.

    I know and fully understand that I cannot use a C&R FFL for the purpose of engaging in the business of buying and selling guns.

    What I don't know is exactly what that means? What is the threshhold for buying and selling firearms that, if crossed, might cause issues with the BATF?

    I know that lots of folks sell at gun shows or buy and sell (profitably) from their personal collections so I'm unclear as to how important it is to have the FFL.

    And are there any Maryland specific laws that need to come into play? I've been here for a couple of years but I still think of myself as a Maryland newbie.
     

    Darkemp

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 18, 2009
    7,808
    Marylandistan
    I just got approved for my C&R FFL license but now I'm thinking about getting the regular FFL license. I like the idea of expanding my hobby a little bit and being more active in buying and selling guns and, as best I could tell from the BATF website, if I am selling firearms profitably I really need to consider getting the regular FFL.

    I know and fully understand that I cannot use a C&R FFL for the purpose of engaging in the business of buying and selling guns.

    What I don't know is exactly what that means? What is the threshhold for buying and selling firearms that, if crossed, might cause issues with the BATF?

    I know that lots of folks sell at gun shows or buy and sell (profitably) from their personal collections so I'm unclear as to how important it is to have the FFL.

    And are there any Maryland specific laws that need to come into play? I've been here for a couple of years but I still think of myself as a Maryland newbie.

    Need to do a lot more research, in a nutshell you need to:

    1.) Have an actual operating business registered properly with the State and your local county. Sole Proprietorship, LLC, or Inc are all types. Research and you choose what fits your needs.

    2.). Have Zoning approval for your home based business- this varies wildly by county, your county site will help you here.

    It can be done in MD but is extremely difficult from a residence dependent on Zoning primarily.

    If you are not running some form of actual business with records, taxes being paid, etc. You will not get a license.
     

    boisepaw

    boisepaw
    Jan 5, 2015
    380
    Eastern shore, MD
    Any suggestions for attorneys or legal resources that could help answer questions and sort things out?



    Need to do a lot more research, in a nutshell you need to:

    1.) Have an actual operating business registered properly with the State and your local county. Sole Proprietorship, LLC, or Inc are all types. Research and you choose what fits your needs.

    2.). Have Zoning approval for your home based business- this varies wildly by county, your county site will help you here.

    It can be done in MD but is extremely difficult from a residence dependent on Zoning primarily.

    If you are not running some form of actual business with records, taxes being paid, etc. You will not get a license.
     

    ras_oscar

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 23, 2014
    1,666
    I recently listened to a youtube video regarding someone that had a large personal collection he bought and sold from periodically. One of his legal transaction was subsequently re transferred and found in the possession of a prohibited person. Long story short. BAFT visited him and gave him a cease and desist letter telling him to get a license. Wouldn't the op be eligible to get a license and conduct business legally if he was only selling and buying at gun shows (for instance)? I know our HOA has prohibition on home businesses, primarily because of the perceived increase traffic on a residential street. I can see large pushpack for a home based business.
     

    Kharn

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 9, 2008
    3,578
    Hazzard County
    The sticking point for home occupations in my county is "No retail sales, other than for goods produced on the premises, shall be conducted on the premises."

    Are transfers and special orders "retail sales?" I think from the wording of the restriction, an 07 manufacturing FFL would be the only one available.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    Bottom line - In Md , the limiting factor is the Zoning . ( And if you are going to deal with handguns , the Maryland Regulated Weapons Dealer Lic is a particular logistic hurdle .)

    The best way is to already have a succuesful , self supporting business not related to firearms , and subsequently add a gun department .
     

    Xshot

    Ultimate Member
    BANNED!!!
    Aug 14, 2013
    1,645
    Pasadena, MD
    Bottom line - In Md , the limiting factor is the Zoning . ( And if you are going to deal with handguns , the Maryland Regulated Weapons Dealer Lic is a particular logistic hurdle .)

    The best way is to already have a succuesful , self supporting business not related to firearms , and subsequently add a gun department .


    This.
    Zoning was an absolute nightmare for Field Traders to get up and running. This was Anne Arundel County.
     

    Darkemp

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 18, 2009
    7,808
    Marylandistan
    This.
    Zoning was an absolute nightmare for Field Traders to get up and running. This was Anne Arundel County.

    There are some home based FFL’s in AACO in residential zones. There are other reasons for an FFL 01 other than sales.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    I recently listened to a youtube video regarding someone that had a large personal collection he bought and sold from periodically. One of his legal transaction was subsequently re transferred and found in the possession of a prohibited person. Long story short. BAFT visited him and gave him a cease and desist letter telling him to get a license. Wouldn't the op be eligible to get a license and conduct business legally if he was only selling and buying at gun shows (for instance)? I know our HOA has prohibition on home businesses, primarily because of the perceived increase traffic on a residential street. I can see large pushpack for a home based business.

    No.

    ATF requires you to have regular business hours that you are open to the public. They can be very limited, but you cannot be “gun show only”. That isn’t regular business hours. You also need a place of business for those regular hours. Thus, zoning.

    Kitchen table FFLs got much more difficult to do back under Clinton.

    Basically if you want an FFL-01 as a hobby, that also means you need to be serious enough about it to also run it as a business. Even if it is a limited one. You’ll need to handle zoning and county and state registration. You’ll need a MD regulated firearms dealer license also if you want to handle handguns at all (or what are now banned firearms).

    And you’ll need to develop enough business that you can report a profit on your income taxes. Or at least, not report your losses so you are making an income, even if limited.

    So it can’t just be for you. You’ll need to do at least a few transfers or purchase and sales to make some money in there. Actual work will be required. Doesn’t have to be arduous. Someone who’s actually done it can probably tell you what it requires. But most people I know of who did it as a hobby to help with their collection stopped doing it after just a couple/few years because they were spending a not insignificant amount of time doing it just to keep their license.

    Dunno, figure needing to invest at least a dozen hours a month actually running the business. At that level, don’t really expect to be making much money.

    Also keep in mind premise requirements for safe storage, record keeping, etc. (as far as I am aware you are not allowed to store your personal firearms and business firearms together).

    It basically ain’t worth it unless you are retired and have a real hankering or really like being an FFL. Or need a side business. As a hobby, I’d guess 95% of people find out its way too much of a pain.
     

    Schipperke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    18,537
    No.

    ATF requires you to have regular business hours that you are open to the public. They can be very limited, but you cannot be “gun show only”. That isn’t regular business hours. You also need a place of business for those regular hours. Thus, zoning.

    Kitchen table FFLs got much more difficult to do back under Clinton.

    Basically if you want an FFL-01 as a hobby, that also means you need to be serious enough about it to also run it as a business. Even if it is a limited one. You’ll need to handle zoning and county and state registration. You’ll need a MD regulated firearms dealer license also if you want to handle handguns at all (or what are now banned firearms).

    And you’ll need to develop enough business that you can report a profit on your income taxes. Or at least, not report your losses so you are making an income, even if limited.

    So it can’t just be for you. You’ll need to do at least a few transfers or purchase and sales to make some money in there. Actual work will be required. Doesn’t have to be arduous. Someone who’s actually done it can probably tell you what it requires. But most people I know of who did it as a hobby to help with their collection stopped doing it after just a couple/few years because they were spending a not insignificant amount of time doing it just to keep their license.

    Dunno, figure needing to invest at least a dozen hours a month actually running the business. At that level, don’t really expect to be making much money.

    Also keep in mind premise requirements for safe storage, record keeping, etc. (as far as I am aware you are not allowed to store your personal firearms and business firearms together).

    It basically ain’t worth it unless you are retired and have a real hankering or really like being an FFL. Or need a side business. As a hobby, I’d guess 95% of people find out its way too much of a pain.

    I transferred a few firearms exactly as you state, a kitchen table. The guy was located in a upper end community in MoCo, no doubt 80+ percent Liberal, not firearm friendly territory. My wife went once to do a transfer. When he went to get her rifle, we saw a room filled with boxes. As we left my wife says to me, "No way people here know what's in that home"
     

    Docster

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 19, 2010
    9,768
    I just got approved for my C&R FFL license but now I'm thinking about getting the regular FFL license. I like the idea of expanding my hobby a little bit and being more active in buying and selling guns and, as best I could tell from the BATF website, if I am selling firearms profitably I really need to consider getting the regular FFL.

    I know and fully understand that I cannot use a C&R FFL for the purpose of engaging in the business of buying and selling guns.

    What I don't know is exactly what that means? What is the threshhold for buying and selling firearms that, if crossed, might cause issues with the BATF?

    I know that lots of folks sell at gun shows or buy and sell (profitably) from their personal collections so I'm unclear as to how important it is to have the FFL.

    And are there any Maryland specific laws that need to come into play? I've been here for a couple of years but I still think of myself as a Maryland newbie.

    Been discussed at length in the past. Have you looked at the FAQs in the C & R section? Also "Search" there for the vast numbers of answers already there
     

    Docster

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 19, 2010
    9,768
    I just got approved for my C&R FFL license but now I'm thinking about getting the regular FFL license. I like the idea of expanding my hobby a little bit and being more active in buying and selling guns and, as best I could tell from the BATF website, if I am selling firearms profitably I really need to consider getting the regular FFL.

    I know and fully understand that I cannot use a C&R FFL for the purpose of engaging in the business of buying and selling guns.

    What I don't know is exactly what that means? What is the threshhold for buying and selling firearms that, if crossed, might cause issues with the BATF?

    I know that lots of folks sell at gun shows or buy and sell (profitably) from their personal collections so I'm unclear as to how important it is to have the FFL.

    And are there any Maryland specific laws that need to come into play? I've been here for a couple of years but I still think of myself as a Maryland newbie.

    Been discussed at length in the past. Have you looked at the FAQs in the C & R section? Also "Search" there for the vast numbers of answers and legal references already there
     

    whistlersmother

    Peace through strength
    Jan 29, 2013
    8,948
    Fulton, MD
    Bottom line - In Md , the limiting factor is the Zoning . ( And if you are going to deal with handguns , the Maryland Regulated Weapons Dealer Lic is a particular logistic hurdle .)

    The best way is to already have a succuesful , self supporting business not related to firearms , and subsequently add a gun department .

    Like, say, a gym rat health food store.......
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    Actually Yes !

    But notice the key parameters of the underlying business being successful and self supporting . And G.R. started out as mostly a nutrition store with a gun counter , morphed into 50/ 50 , then morphed into a gun store with a nutrition shelf .

    But putting G.R. aside , this type of thing is common at hardware stores , country stores , tobacco stores, pawn shops , gas station/ convience store , and even more than one liquor store of my aquaintence .
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    Yes there is both ambiguity and catch-22 on the subject .

    Yes it's vague distinction about " conducting as a business " vs incidental to normal aquiring and disposing to improve one's collection .

    Ultimately " conducting as a business " cumulatively means what an ATF Agent , US Attorney , and Jury think it is . Hence the common practice to initially issue a Cease & Desist Letter for cases that aren't blatantly criminal thugs .

    But there is a big no man's land between the upper threshold of acceptable for private individuals , and the lower threshold of businesslike Enough to get FFL .
     

    whistlersmother

    Peace through strength
    Jan 29, 2013
    8,948
    Fulton, MD
    Actually Yes !

    But notice the key parameters of the underlying business being successful and self supporting . And G.R. started out as mostly a nutrition store with a gun counter , morphed into 50/ 50 , then morphed into a gun store with a nutrition shelf .

    But putting G.R. aside , this type of thing is common at hardware stores , country stores , tobacco stores, pawn shops , gas station/ convience store , and even more than one liquor store of my aquaintence .

    I couldn't pass up the opportunity to be snarky....

    But yes, having something finding the next expansion eases a lot of money problems.
     

    Darkemp

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 18, 2009
    7,808
    Marylandistan
    No.

    ATF requires you to have regular business hours that you are open to the public. They can be very limited, but you cannot be “gun show only”. That isn’t regular business hours. You also need a place of business for those regular hours. Thus, zoning.

    Kitchen table FFLs got much more difficult to do back under Clinton.

    Basically if you want an FFL-01 as a hobby, that also means you need to be serious enough about it to also run it as a business. Even if it is a limited one. You’ll need to handle zoning and county and state registration. You’ll need a MD regulated firearms dealer license also if you want to handle handguns at all (or what are now banned firearms).

    And you’ll need to develop enough business that you can report a profit on your income taxes. Or at least, not report your losses so you are making an income, even if limited.

    So it can’t just be for you. You’ll need to do at least a few transfers or purchase and sales to make some money in there. Actual work will be required. Doesn’t have to be arduous. Someone who’s actually done it can probably tell you what it requires. But most people I know of who did it as a hobby to help with their collection stopped doing it after just a couple/few years because they were spending a not insignificant amount of time doing it just to keep their license.

    Dunno, figure needing to invest at least a dozen hours a month actually running the business. At that level, don’t really expect to be making much money.

    Also keep in mind premise requirements for safe storage, record keeping, etc. (as far as I am aware you are not allowed to store your personal firearms and business firearms together).

    It basically ain’t worth it unless you are retired and have a real hankering or really like being an FFL. Or need a side business. As a hobby, I’d guess 95% of people find out its way too much of a pain.

    I don’t think the legal hurdles of a home based FFL are that insurmountable, but again if you have an existing legal home based business in a similar vein it’s not a bad thing to add.

    A lot of this comes down to a simple and personal question: Do you actually want to own and operate a business? There’s a lot that comes with that even in a part-time capacity.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    It's not so much bankrolling expansion , it's about having a the zoning , and having a revenue stream at all while awaiting Md Regulated Weapons Dealer Licencing .

    Unless things changed , you can't get a RWD lic on a business plan . You have to have ownership or valid lease of business location , plus all alarms , vaults , other security features , etc, etc before applying . Then wait 6-12 months of full overhead expenses w/o any Regulated Weapon related income .

    Right now , a long gun and ammunition only " FFL Only " dealer could have been raking in the $$$ if they had a supply of ammo and shotguns . But in normal times , that's usually not enough .

    So a " pure gun store " would need to have a boatload of startup capital to burn through , as opposed if your cigar store is profitable , or at least breaking even , you can be patient waiting for your RWD .

    ( RWD just sounds awkward , not like used to be P&R Dealer )
     

    Darkemp

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 18, 2009
    7,808
    Marylandistan
    It's not so much bankrolling expansion , it's about having a the zoning , and having a revenue stream at all while awaiting Md Regulated Weapons Dealer Licencing .

    Unless things changed , you can't get a RWD lic on a business plan . You have to have ownership or valid lease of business location , plus all alarms , vaults , other security features , etc, etc before applying . Then wait 6-12 months of full overhead expenses w/o any Regulated Weapon related income .

    Right now , a long gun and ammunition only " FFL Only " dealer could have been raking in the $$$ if they had a supply of ammo and shotguns . But in normal times , that's usually not enough .

    So a " pure gun store " would need to have a boatload of startup capital to burn through , as opposed if your cigar store is profitable , or at least breaking even , you can be patient waiting for your RWD .

    ( RWD just sounds awkward , not like used to be P&R Dealer )

    My understanding is you don’t have to have a RWD to have an 01 FFL, just if you plan to involve RWD’s. There are some that I believe don’t have that already as a precedent.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    You don't *have to* , but that's where a big chunk of your business and profits are for a general purpose, all around LGS . Of course if you are specialized in long range rifles , or high end sporting clays , or whatever , different set of calculations .
     

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