30-40 Krag reloading

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  • Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    So, I'll be working up loads for my Krag.

    I'm always looking to see if I can use existing bullets and I have my favorite Cast bullet the Lee 311-160-2P but also the 309-160-r which may be better for feeding cause of the round nose.
    The Lee 311-160-2P really likes to run around 1800fps I've found verified in my 308 Rifle, 300AAC AR and recently my Mosin Sniper. They all have twist rates of 1:9 or 1:10
    I have yet to find ANYTHING that liked the 309-160-r but may need to research better what velocity it likes.
    I've read I really need to spend time with dummy rounds making sure which OAL will feed properly for any bullet in the Krag
    I also have lots of 150gr FMJ used for the 30-06 class rifles I have

    The Factory Winchester ammo I first shot from was 180gr SP and ran 2430fps average which I thought was on the Hot side. I may be wrong on that.

    Powder I"m targeting is IMR4895 which is my typical Milsurp Powder
    I see lots of load data out there for it.

    Edit, just looking for 2-4MOA @ 100 yards to bang steel
     
    Last edited:

    Topher

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 8, 2008
    4,817
    Fredneck
    Good luck -
    I have loaded Krag ammo with 4064 and had results with 180 gr. rounds.

    I have always been warned by FFL - Krags are single lugged guns. Load the ammo light.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Good luck -
    I have loaded Krag ammo with 4064 and had results with 180 gr. rounds.

    I have always been warned by FFL - Krags are single lugged guns. Load the ammo light.

    Hmm, single Lug?
    Seems more like 3? the other 2 don't count?
    One in the front,
    One in front of the bolt,
    The bolt itself

    I personally like being on the lighter side whenever possible.
     

    JamesDong

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Aug 13, 2020
    3,260
    Duffield, Va
    Hmm, single Lug?
    Seems more like 3? the other 2 don't count?
    One in the front,
    One in front of the bolt,
    The bolt itself

    I personally like being on the lighter side whenever possible.

    Nope, single lug, the Krag is not a strong action compared to Arasaka's, 98 Mausers and Springfields to name a few.

    I find the Krag a pleasure to shoot BUT one thing I have noticed the cases seem to stretch out much faster than other cartridges.
     
    So, I'll be working up loads for my Krag.

    I'm always looking to see if I can use existing bullets and I have my favorite Cast bullet the Lee 311-160-2P but also the 309-160-r which may be better for feeding cause of the round nose.
    The Lee 311-160-2P really likes to run around 1800fps I've found verified in my 308 Rifle, 300AAC AR and recently my Mosin Sniper. They all have twist rates of 1:9 or 1:10
    I have yet to find ANYTHING that liked the 309-160-r but may need to research better what velocity it likes.
    I've read I really need to spend time with dummy rounds making sure which OAL will feed properly for any bullet in the Krag
    I also have lots of 150gr FMJ used for the 30-06 class rifles I have

    The Factory Winchester ammo I first shot from was 180gr SP and ran 2430fps average which I thought was on the Hot side. I may be wrong on that.

    Powder I"m targeting is IMR4895 which is my typical Milsurp Powder
    I see lots of load data out there for it.

    That does seem a little hot to me too. I would think a 180gr bullet should be going ~2200-2300fps.
    My load is old school... 220gr pill over 40gr IMR4350. It runs just shy of 2000fps from my carbine.
     

    noahhh

    Active Member
    Jan 28, 2009
    254
    Arnold,Md
    First, saying that bullets from X mould have a sweet spot velocity-wise only holds true for a specific alloy, and then only in terms of its elasticity not accuracy or anything else.

    Krags were made with long throats to accommodate the old 220 grain RN gov't bullet. In order to get those short 160 grain bullets anywhere near the rifling leade they will perforce be very shallowly seated in the case which in turn runs the risk of the resulting cartridge being crooked which spells poor accuracy. My advice is to snag a mould that makes a long 200-220 grain bullet, preferrably a nose riding design which said long nose rides neatly on top of the lands, and whose base section is sized to fit the throat of the rifle. (Determine throat diameter via a chamber cast and size the bullet about a half thousandth smaller- ignore groove diameter entirely, it's the throat that actually determines proper diameter.) Krag throats ran on the large size compared to modern throats. Throats as big as .312-.313 are not uncommon. Don't worry, the soft lead bullet will swage down to whatever your groove diameter is upon discharge.

    Get an M die which expands the case neck to accommodate a a cast bullet larger than .308" and bells the mouth so as not to shave lead when seating. Request it to be .001-.002" smaller than bullet diameter to make the neck give a good grip on the bullet.

    RN bullets do feed best through issue Krags.

    To sum up a few points:
    1. Soft is better than hard because of better gas seal on discharge. Better gas seal= less leading (because powder gasses aren't cutting past it)=better accuracy= and will expand better on game.
    2. Use a long bullet for reasons stated above. It'll feed better through the Krag too.
    3. Limit velocity to around 2000fps. That'll yield original Krag performance without fear of leading from soft-ish alloys (bhn 12-14, like clip on wheelweights) If hunting power is desired, that 2000fps threshold means that the heavier (220gr.) bullet will provide more energy than the light (160gr.) bullet. Simple physics.
    4. Have the bullet fill the throat and ride the tops of the lands.
    5. No need to run full throttle. As with a helluva lot of cast bullet shooting, best accuracy may well be found in the 16-1800fps vicinity. Sacrifice accuracy for speed only when working up hunting ammo. Faster burning powders like RL-7 and 4198 help here. Save the 4895,4064,and 4350 for hunting ammo at 2000 fps.
    6. Above all make sure your ammo is straight. A runout gauge is mighty handy. Start the bullet crookedly into the rifling and it'll emerge from the muzzle crookedly. Jacketed ammo is more forgiving in that regard.

    Krags are strong enough within their original performance guidelines- 40,000psi max. Go hotter than that and you're asking for trouble. If in doubt, back off. If you're getting more than 2000fps with a 220 bullet, you're on thin ice. The aforementioned safety lugs only come into play after the lone locking lug lets go. At least a Krag bolt will never blow back into your head thanks to the safety lugs.

    Lay your hands on as many cast bullet loading manuals that you can. Current and past Lyman manuals are great.

    Hope this helps. These are lessons I learned over 50+ years of bullet casting and 50+ years of messing with Krags.
     

    Topher

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 8, 2008
    4,817
    Fredneck
    First, saying that bullets from X mould have a sweet spot velocity-wise only holds true for a specific alloy, and then only in terms of its elasticity, not accuracy or anything else.

    Krags were made with long throats to accommodate the old 220 grain RN gov't bullet. In order to get those short 160 grain bullets anywhere near the rifling leade, they will perforce be very shallowly seated in the case which in turn runs the risk of the resulting cartridge being crooked which spells poor accuracy. My advice is to snag a mould that makes a long 200-220 grain bullet, preferably a nose riding design which said long nose rides neatly on top of the lands, and whose base section is sized to fit the throat of the rifle. (Determine throat diameter via a chamber cast and size the bullet about a half thousandth smaller- ignore groove diameter entirely, it's the throat that actually determines proper diameter.) Krag throats ran on the large size compared to modern throats. Throats as big as .312-.313 are not uncommon. Don't worry, the soft lead bullet will swage down to whatever your groove diameter is upon discharge.

    Get an M die which expands the case neck to accommodate a a cast bullet larger than .308" and bells the mouth so as not to shave lead when seating. Request it to be .001-.002" smaller than bullet diameter to make the neck give a good grip on the bullet.

    RN bullets do feed best through issue Krags.

    To sum up a few points:
    1. Soft is better than hard because of a better gas seal on discharge. Better gas seal= less leading (because powder gasses aren't cutting past it)=better accuracy= and will expand better on the game.
    2. Use a long bullet for the reasons stated above. It'll feed better through the Krag too.
    3. Limit velocity to around 2000fps. That'll yield original Krag performance without fear of leading from soft-ish alloys (bhn 12-14, like clip-on wheel weights) If hunting power is desired, that 2000fps threshold means that the heavier (220gr.) bullet will provide more energy than the light (160gr.) bullet. Simple physics.
    4. Have the bullet fill the throat and ride the tops of the lands.
    5. No need to run full throttle. As with a helluva lot of cast bullet shooting, best accuracy may well be found in the 16-1800fps vicinity. Sacrifice accuracy for speed only when working up hunting ammo. Faster burning powders like RL-7 and 4198 help here. Save the 4895,4064, and 4350 for hunting ammo at 2000 fps.
    6. Above all make sure your ammo is straight. A runout gauge is mighty handy. Start the bullet crookedly into the rifling and it'll emerge from the muzzle crookedly. Jacketed ammo is more forgiving in that regard.

    Krags are strong enough within their original performance guidelines- 40,000psi max. Go hotter than that and you're asking for trouble. If in doubt, back off. If you're getting more than 2000fps with a 220 bullet, you're on thin ice. The aforementioned safety lugs only come into play after the lone locking lug lets go. At least a Krag bolt will never blow back into your head thanks to the safety lugs.

    Lay your hands on as many cast bullet loading manuals that you can. Current and past Lyman manuals are great.

    Hope this helps. These are lessons I learned over 50+ years of bullet casting and 50+ years of messing with Krags.

    How I do love the knowledge on this site!

    Great Krag post! Thank you!
     

    Jake4U

    Now with 67% more FJB
    Sep 1, 2018
    1,150
    I have nothing to offer about reloading information, but the sporterized custom Krag I used to own had the smoothest bolt action of any rifle I've ever stored in my safe. Because I now have old dude eyes iron sights just didn't work for me and I let it go. It was a great deer rifle.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    First, saying that bullets from X mould have a sweet spot velocity-wise only holds true for a specific alloy, and then only in terms of its elasticity not accuracy or anything else.

    Krags were made with long throats to accommodate the old 220 grain RN gov't bullet. In order to get those short 160 grain bullets anywhere near the rifling leade they will perforce be very shallowly seated in the case which in turn runs the risk of the resulting cartridge being crooked which spells poor accuracy. My advice is to snag a mould that makes a long 200-220 grain bullet, preferrably a nose riding design which said long nose rides neatly on top of the lands, and whose base section is sized to fit the throat of the rifle. (Determine throat diameter via a chamber cast and size the bullet about a half thousandth smaller- ignore groove diameter entirely, it's the throat that actually determines proper diameter.) Krag throats ran on the large size compared to modern throats. Throats as big as .312-.313 are not uncommon. Don't worry, the soft lead bullet will swage down to whatever your groove diameter is upon discharge.

    Get an M die which expands the case neck to accommodate a a cast bullet larger than .308" and bells the mouth so as not to shave lead when seating. Request it to be .001-.002" smaller than bullet diameter to make the neck give a good grip on the bullet.

    RN bullets do feed best through issue Krags.

    To sum up a few points:
    1. Soft is better than hard because of better gas seal on discharge. Better gas seal= less leading (because powder gasses aren't cutting past it)=better accuracy= and will expand better on game.
    2. Use a long bullet for reasons stated above. It'll feed better through the Krag too.
    3. Limit velocity to around 2000fps. That'll yield original Krag performance without fear of leading from soft-ish alloys (bhn 12-14, like clip on wheelweights) If hunting power is desired, that 2000fps threshold means that the heavier (220gr.) bullet will provide more energy than the light (160gr.) bullet. Simple physics.
    4. Have the bullet fill the throat and ride the tops of the lands.
    5. No need to run full throttle. As with a helluva lot of cast bullet shooting, best accuracy may well be found in the 16-1800fps vicinity. Sacrifice accuracy for speed only when working up hunting ammo. Faster burning powders like RL-7 and 4198 help here. Save the 4895,4064,and 4350 for hunting ammo at 2000 fps.
    6. Above all make sure your ammo is straight. A runout gauge is mighty handy. Start the bullet crookedly into the rifling and it'll emerge from the muzzle crookedly. Jacketed ammo is more forgiving in that regard.

    Krags are strong enough within their original performance guidelines- 40,000psi max. Go hotter than that and you're asking for trouble. If in doubt, back off. If you're getting more than 2000fps with a 220 bullet, you're on thin ice. The aforementioned safety lugs only come into play after the lone locking lug lets go. At least a Krag bolt will never blow back into your head thanks to the safety lugs.

    Lay your hands on as many cast bullet loading manuals that you can. Current and past Lyman manuals are great.

    Hope this helps. These are lessons I learned over 50+ years of bullet casting and 50+ years of messing with Krags.

    Not sure I'll be able to meet all the suggestions above at least at the beginning. I'll have to keep my expectations low for now.

    https://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-tl309-230-5r.html

    I do also have a Lee TL309-230-5R mold and plenty already sized up and gas checked. I actually got decent performance with these Powder coated and gas checked on my 300AAC. But those were running subsonic.

    I do have an M die gifted to me (thx again John) and use that for the 30 cal Cast rifle rounds.

    I think I'll scout out some jacketed bullets also to start to at least see what I can compare it to.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    Pretty much what Noahhh said


    Just to add for historical reference , back in the day , the typical velocities were :

    220 RN @ +/- 2000fps
    180. @ +/- 2200 fps
    150. @ +/- 2400 fps

    That's not to say that there couldn't be a more modern slow powder that could get a few more fps within 40K .

    But in historical perspective , in the first part of 20th Century , more or less up to WWII , the Krag was more common , and more frequently used for hunting than the .30-06 . And the 220 RN @ 2000fps was considered an excellent Elk ctg .

    Old School conventional Round Nose jacketed bullets work well at Krag velocities , so all increased velocities would do , would be to shave a tenth of in or 2 in trajectory .

    Don't think of the .30-40 was a weak .308 Win/ '06 , think of it as a turbocharged .30-30 .
     

    JamesDong

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Aug 13, 2020
    3,260
    Duffield, Va
    First, saying that bullets from X mould have a sweet spot velocity-wise only holds true for a specific alloy, and then only in terms of its elasticity not accuracy or anything else.

    Krags were made with long throats to accommodate the old 220 grain RN gov't bullet. In order to get those short 160 grain bullets anywhere near the rifling leade they will perforce be very shallowly seated in the case which in turn runs the risk of the resulting cartridge being crooked which spells poor accuracy.

    Good dope, because of that long throat it's not my imagination that the cases seem to stretch out quicker than most cartridges while using 150 gr bullets?
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    I figured I would load "The Load" for mine.

    Red Dot (later versions state LARGER than .30-40 only) or 2400 behind a 200 - 220 grain round nosed cast bullet. I am unlikely to shoot mine beyond 100 - 200 yards.
     

    noahhh

    Active Member
    Jan 28, 2009
    254
    Arnold,Md
    I never found .30-40's to stretch any more or less than other calibers given modest velocities in all of them.

    That Lee bullet should work fine, going by its shape. Just make sure that its dimensions meet the parameters I outlined in my earlier post. If the dimensions are way off (not uncommon with Lee moulds) you may well have trouble hitting steel out past 100 yards. But why not try it?

    I'm loathe to publish my favorite target cast loads because they all entail the use of SR-4759, and that powder was discontinued a few years ago. (Luckily I snapped up all I could find when it happened and am set for a while, but I'm always looking for more in case I live more than another 5 years! Hint, hint!) 2400 and RL-7 are two other good ones. Red Dot & Bullseye get the nod for backyard tin can plinkers. 4350 and IMR-4831 for full snort deer whackers.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Lee 200gr round nose Mold came in but the seller of the Krag dies lied and posted it for sale when they did not have it. Even submitted a USPS tag.
    Someones gonna get bad ebay feedback!
    Molded up 100 rounds to test and powder coated and gas checked about 20 of them.

    Still looking at load data. Thinking to use Unique. I have
    H335
    Unique
    Blue Dot
    IMR 4227 (would prefer to save this for my M1 Carbine)
    IMR4895

    when I get the dies in, I'll first figure out OAL. I've not ever done a throat cast and not looking to do that here. But I'll at least see what OAL I can run with that bullet and still chamber.

    Edited my first post just to be clear. Looking to just get 2-4MOA so I can bang steel at 100 yards.
     

    noahhh

    Active Member
    Jan 28, 2009
    254
    Arnold,Md
    Sorry for the late response. I went to the hospital on the 21st and underwent some gut surgery, and got home yesterday. (Am A-ok now. Whew!)

    Of those powders you mentioned in the last post I would think that Unique would be your best bet for lower velocity target loads. Step up to the 4895 for higher velocity loads that would also give good duty in the deer woods if you so choose. Note that Hodgdon themselves say that IMR 4895 can be used for reduced loads too: A charge of no lower than 60% of published maximum loads is safe with IMR 4895, and can return nice accuracy when used in that manner. (Do not go any lower than that, and do not substitute any other powder in that "60% formula"!!!!! Detonation can occur and wreck your gun and ruin your day- not to mention yourself!! I honestly don't know why Hodgdon only recommends IMR 4895 for that trick. I have some theories but I'll keep them to myself so as not to start any "Internet false truths")

    Some people recommend using fillers to take up the empty space in a case unfilled by small charges of fast burning powders, others decry them. I'm on the fence, and almost entirely avoid them as I've never found fillers to be particularly useful in increasing accuracy to any meaningful extent. The generally very small increase in consistency/accuracy gained from the use of fillers to me is negated by the very real chance of ringing the barrel's chamber (or in extreme circumstances causing detonation) if/when improperly employed. To me it's another one of those "what can possibly go wrong" kind of things!
     
    Lee 200gr round nose Mold came in but the seller of the Krag dies lied and posted it for sale when they did not have it. Even submitted a USPS tag.
    Someones gonna get bad ebay feedback!
    Molded up 100 rounds to test and powder coated and gas checked about 20 of them.

    Still looking at load data. Thinking to use Unique. I have
    H335
    Unique
    Blue Dot
    IMR 4227 (would prefer to save this for my M1 Carbine)
    IMR4895

    when I get the dies in, I'll first figure out OAL. I've not ever done a throat cast and not looking to do that here. But I'll at least see what OAL I can run with that bullet and still chamber.

    Edited my first post just to be clear. Looking to just get 2-4MOA so I can bang steel at 100 yards.

    My Lyman manual has data for 190gr and 210gr cast boolits. IMR 4227 has data for both and none of the other listed powders are shown at all.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Thx all, I took some loads to the range today to do some exploring
    I had up till not only shot some Winchester hunting ammo and recently acquired some Remington Hunting ammo.
    The Winchester was horrible. 3-4" groups high and left @ 50 yards.
    The Remington also 180gr was much better at 2" groups
    I will say this, with the rifle rest I had and my eyes (I forgot my eye diopter) best I will do is 1-2" @ 50 yards
    150gr Sierra Match Kings with 34,34.5 and 35gr of IMR4895
    The 34.5gr was 2205fps average and 2" groups so that made me happy right out of the start.
    All were high and left

    Then I had the 200gr Lee mold powder coated and Gass checked at 205grains
    These bullets are not good powder coated cause I'm hitting the lands sometimes when chambering the round and its hard to close the bolt on half of them. I'm going to have to run these uncoated and lubed next time.
    I tried 10gr and 11gr Unique . 10gr was 2" groups (1300fps) and the 11gr (1375fps)was 1.5" groups. The groups were high and right.
    Again shows promise

    Last, I tried the Lee 311-160-2R I use for 300AAC. and 11gr Unique(1500fps). There were high but more centered and only a few inches right. 2" at 50 yards.

    I"d really like to figure out the powder and bullet combo to get more centered with the windage. I"d be perfectly happy with 2" groups @50 yards for what I like do shoot.

    Thinking next time out I'll try lead lubed and gas checked 200gr with some different powders & charges
    I'll also try the Lee 311-160 and some range of charges with Unique and maybe IMR4895
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Maybe a slight adjustment to hold or how you control muzzle jump will help to get your groups centered.
    The Krag barrel is so long that there is plenty of room between the action screws, middle and upper band.
    It would be easy for a rifle that old to possibly have some shrinking /drying going on that may be working against you to some extent.
     

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