Are SBR's legal in MD?

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  • Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Bottom line is, we can debate the various MD laws and codes and which sections say what.

    BUT, BATF will NOT approve an <29" centerfire semi auto SBR for an MD resident.

    And that MSP has stated that the rest of the copy cat provisions, and the HBAR requirements do not apply to SBRs.

    Consistent? No. But that is MD.

    And it seems that MSP does not consider suppressors to be flash suppressors, even though the bill states that anything at actually suppresses the flash is a flash suppressor.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    Bottom line is, we can debate the various MD laws and codes and which sections say what.

    BUT, BATF will NOT approve an <29" centerfire semi auto SBR for an MD resident.

    And that MSP has stated that the rest of the copy cat provisions, and the HBAR requirements do not apply to SBRs.

    Consistent? No. But that is MD.

    And it seems that MSP does not consider suppressors to be flash suppressors, even though the bill states that anything at actually suppresses the flash is a flash suppressor.

    But the ATF will approve a SBR that is <29" OAL if it is a rimfire.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    Bottom line is, we can debate the various MD laws and codes and which sections say what.

    BUT, BATF will NOT approve an <29" centerfire semi auto SBR for an MD resident.

    And that MSP has stated that the rest of the copy cat provisions, and the HBAR requirements do not apply to SBRs.

    Consistent? No. But that is MD.

    And it seems that MSP does not consider suppressors to be flash suppressors, even though the bill states that anything at actually suppresses the flash is a flash suppressor.

    Where has the MSP stated the the rest of the copycat provisions do not apply to SBRs?
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    Where has the MSP stated the the rest of the copycat provisions do not apply to SBRs?
    Can you read? He posted the correct information that all of us with SBR's know to be true. We have done our research, reached out to MSP LD and been given the same information.

    Maybe you should just stop asking us questions, when we have given you everything you need to start your own research. But like I said up thread, I doubt you'll do anything except ask/demand that we give you information.

    You're supposedly a attorney, with all legal things you do research. Go research on your own. Don't make us do the work for you, since you're too lazy to do it yourself.

    You could always accept my challenge from up thread about submitting a eForm 1 and seeing if it'll be approved. But like I said up thread I don't think you'll do it, because it would prove me correct and put a end to your silliness. But you won't do it because you apparently also like to argue with the "unwashed and not as smart masses" and attempt to make them play your game.

    Another very real possibility is that you are not a MD resident and therefore unable to submit a eForm 1 to make a SBR in MD.

    Like I said in a previous post, class dismissed, you lost, school is out of session. Game is over.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    Can you read? He posted the correct information that all of us with SBR's know to be true. We have done our research, reached out to MSP LD and been given the same information.

    Maybe you should just stop asking us questions, when we have given you everything you need to start your own research. But like I said up thread, I doubt you'll do anything except ask/demand that we give you information.

    You're supposedly a attorney, with all legal things you do research. Go research on your own. Don't make us do the work for you, since you're too lazy to do it yourself.

    You could always accept my challenge from up thread about submitting a eForm 1 and seeing if it'll be approved. But like I said up thread I don't think you'll do it, because it would prove me correct and put a end to your silliness. But you won't do it because you apparently also like to argue with the "unwashed and not as smart masses" and attempt to make them play your game.

    Another very real possibility is that you are not a MD resident and therefore unable to submit a eForm 1 to make a SBR in MD.

    Like I said in a previous post, class dismissed, you lost, school is out of session. Game is over.

    I certainly can read and what I read did not identify the source where the MSP publicly states that the rest of the "copycat weapon" requirements do not apply to SBRs. I typically try and reference my sources for independent verification. There is no source listed that can independently verified. My experience with contacting the MSP is that they do not always give the correct information.

    I have looked on the MSP website and do not find anything where they publicly state that the rest of the "copycat weapon" requirement do not apply to SBRs. I see plenty of references to the 29" OAL requirement, just not the exemption to the other requirements.

    Going to jail and permanently loosing your right to own a firearm is not a game. It is the reality of the situation if you are wrong. That is not something I am willing to risk. Everything I have read indicates that all of the applicable "copycat weapon" requirements apply and there is no exemption for SBRs. (Criminal Law Title 4 Subtitle 3 and MSP website)

    There have been 144 posts and not one can provide independently verifiable information on where this exemption for SBRs exists. I have asked you numerous times and you have refused to provide independently verifiable information. Why don't you want everyone to know where to find that information?
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    I certainly can read and what I read did not identify the source where the MSP publicly states that the rest of the "copycat weapon" requirements do not apply to SBRs. I typically try and reference my sources for independent verification. There is no source listed that can independently verified. My experience with contacting the MSP is that they do not always give the correct information.



    I have looked on the MSP website and do not find anything where they publicly state that the rest of the "copycat weapon" requirement do not apply to SBRs. I see plenty of references to the 29" OAL requirement, just not the exemption to the other requirements.



    Going to jail and permanently loosing your right to own a firearm is not a game. It is the reality of the situation if you are wrong. That is not something I am willing to risk. Everything I have read indicates that all of the applicable "copycat weapon" requirements apply and there is no exemption for SBRs. (Criminal Law Title 4 Subtitle 3 and MSP website)



    There have been 144 posts and not one can provide independently verifiable information on where this exemption for SBRs exists. I have asked you numerous times and you have refused to provide independently verifiable information. Why don't you want everyone to know where to find that information?
    Independently verifiable means that we give you everything, so you don't have to do anything.

    Call MSP LD and ask for Sgt. Jason Edwards. He can help you with all things NFA in MD. Tell him you want to know about the legality of SBR's in MD and if they must have a HBAR if a AR, or if they can have a flash hider and folding stock no matter what the platform. See what happens.

    Do you want me to post his phone number or email address for you? Or can you find that on your own?
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Bottom line is, we can debate the various MD laws and codes and which sections say what.

    BUT, BATF will NOT approve an <29" centerfire semi auto SBR for an MD resident.

    And that MSP has stated that the rest of the copy cat provisions, and the HBAR requirements do not apply to SBRs.

    Consistent? No. But that is MD.

    And it seems that MSP does not consider suppressors to be flash suppressors, even though the bill states that anything at actually suppresses the flash is a flash suppressor.

    But the ATF will approve a SBR that is <29" OAL if it is a rimfire.

    See red and bold in what I posted.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    Bottom line is, we can debate the various MD laws and codes and which sections say what.

    BUT, BATF will NOT approve an <29" centerfire semi auto SBR for an MD resident.

    And that MSP has stated that the rest of the copy cat provisions, and the HBAR requirements do not apply to SBRs.

    Consistent? No. But that is MD.

    And it seems that MSP does not consider suppressors to be flash suppressors, even though the bill states that anything at actually suppresses the flash is a flash suppressor.

    See red and bold in what I posted.

    My issue is not the 29" OAL requirement, it is the other statement that I have bolded.

    I cannot find where the MSP has publicly stated that the rest of the "copycat weapon" provisions do not apply to SBRs

    Specifically can you have an SBR
    if they can have a flash hider and folding stock no matter what the platform.

    The way I read the code and the MD MSP website is that a semiautomatic centerfire SBR that can accept a detachable magazine and has a folding stock and a flash suppressor would be prohibited under the "copycat weapon" requirements.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    Independently verifiable means that we give you everything, so you don't have to do anything.

    Call MSP LD and ask for Sgt. Jason Edwards. He can help you with all things NFA in MD. Tell him you want to know about the legality of SBR's in MD and if they must have a HBAR if a AR, or if they can have a flash hider and folding stock no matter what the platform. See what happens.

    Do you want me to post his phone number or email address for you? Or can you find that on your own?

    I just got an email from Sgt. Jason Edwards He confirmed what I thought. If the SBR meets any of the "copycat weapon" requirements then it is prohibited in MD.

    The example that you provided would be banned.

    Changing Maryland for the Better



    Jason Edwards

    Sergeant

    Maryland Department of State Police

    Firearms Services Section

    1111 Reisterstown Road

    Pikesville, MD 21208

    jason.edwards@maryland.gov

    (410)653-4508 (O)

    Website | Facebook | Twitter

    ________________________________________
    I am looking into the legality of building a semiautomatic centerfire short barreled rifle that can accept a detachable magazine and has a folding stock and a flash suppressor.

    I have looked at MD Criminal Law Title 4 Subtitle 3 and specifically the "Copycat Weapon" definition (4-301(h)).

    (1) "Copycat weapon" means:
    (i) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that can accept a detachable magazine and has any two of the following:
    1. a folding stock;
    2. a grenade launcher or flare launcher; or
    3. a flash suppressor;
    (ii) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds;
    (iii) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 29 inches;
    (iv) a semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds;
    (v) a semiautomatic shotgun that has a folding stock; or
    (vi) a shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
    (2) "Copycat weapon" does not include an assault long gun or an assault pistol.

    If I am reading this section correctly then this specific short barreled rifle (semiautomatic centerfire short barreled rifle that can accept a detachable magazine and has a folding stock and a flash suppressor) would meet subpart (i) and it would be prohibited in MD because it would be considered a "copycat weapon".

    Some people on the internet claim I am not reading this section correctly. Can someone help me understand the "copycat weapon" requirements as they apply to short barreled rifles.

    John
     

    SkiPatrolDude

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 24, 2017
    3,331
    Timonium-Lutherville
    I just got an email from Sgt. Jason Edwards He confirmed what I thought. If the SBR meets any of the "copycat weapon" requirements then it is prohibited in MD.

    The HBAR requirement in MD does not apply to SBR's. My understanding was similar in that that copycat features (the "two out of three" distinction) still apply.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    I just got an email from Sgt. Jason Edwards He confirmed what I thought. If the SBR meets any of the "copycat weapon" requirements then it is prohibited in MD.
    Well now, that wasn't very hard to do was it?

    You could have done that from the very beginning and we wouldn't have a train wreck of a thread from all your ludicrous and delusional posts.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    Well now, that wasn't very hard to do was it?

    You could have done that from the very beginning and we wouldn't have a train wreck of a thread from all your ludicrous and delusional posts.

    It was not hard, but completely unnecessary.

    Just a few days ago you were saying
    And yet you can't actually tell any of us where the law states that SBR's are or aren't exempt from copycat provisions in the law.

    Short version like I stated above, a SBR must be &gt;29" OAL, yet the other provisions for features do not apply.

    Have a nice night.

    My first post confirmed the correct interpretation

    I would have thought that my response in a previous thread would have helped answer the question. https://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=6249161&postcount=33

    How a firearm is defined changes depending on which section of the law is being applied. The COMAR implements the law, so its definitions will change depending on the underlying law.

    The 29" requirements for a rifle come from MD Criminal Law Title 4 Subtitle 3. The subtitle prohibits the possession of an "assault weapon" (Section 4-303) which includes "copycat weapons" (Section 4-301).

    A "copycat weapon" is defined as

    There is no exemption in the definition for barrel length or handgun so it would be hard to justify something everyone refers to as a rifle as something other than a rifle given the definition.

    This train wreck of a thread continued because people like you misrepresented the law and put other people in jeopardy of loosing their 2A rights if they followed your guidance. That is completely unacceptable.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    It was not hard, but completely unnecessary.



    Just a few days ago you were saying





    My first post confirmed the correct interpretation







    This train wreck of a thread continued because people like you misrepresented the law and put other people in jeopardy of loosing their 2A rights if they followed your guidance. That is completely unacceptable.

    And so was your attitude towards all of us. Instead of bickering with us, you should have asked MSP for the information in the first place.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    And so was your attitude towards all of us. Instead of bickering with us, you should have asked MSP for the information in the first place.

    My attitude reflects what is given to me. If my attitude is unacceptable then so is yours. Treat me with the respect you want and I will reciprocate.

    I didn't need to go ask the MSP about the law because I read it myself. You could have asked the MSP about the law, but you chose to misrepresent it even after being confronted with it. The only reason I asked them is to demonstrate how deceitful you have been about this aspect of the law through this entire thread. You still cannot admit that you were wrong about the law.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    My attitude reflects what is given to me. If my attitude is unacceptable then so is yours. Treat me with the respect you want and I will reciprocate.

    I didn't need to go ask the MSP about the law because I read it myself. You could have asked the MSP about the law, but you chose to misrepresent it even after being confronted with it. The only reason I asked them is to demonstrate how deceitful you have been about this aspect of the law through this entire thread. You still cannot admit that you were wrong about the law.

    You get zero respect because from your first post, you've been argumentative, condescending, combative, demeaning, and many other things that I'm unwilling to say on here, but I'd have no issues speaking them in person. Your attitude towards all of us in this thread is why you are being treated the way you are by us. I won't bend over and kiss your ass, nor would you bend over and kiss my ass. So we are at a impasse. Deal with it.

    I won't admit I was being deceitful, because the information I was given a while ago goes against the email you received, and that MSP possibly changed their minds and didn't tell anybody. Again.

    Your childish rant about people on the internet is probably why you were given the answer that you were. The response was going to be heavy handed, just from that statement. Now we'll probably have the minions of MSP and other organizations all over this place because of your pettiness. Thanks for screwing us over.

    You are no ally to the cause.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    You get zero respect because from your first post, you've been argumentative, condescending, combative, demeaning, and many other things that I'm unwilling to say on here, but I'd have no issues speaking them in person. Your attitude towards all of us in this thread is why you are being treated the way you are by us. I won't bend over and kiss your ass, nor would you bend over and kiss my ass. So we are at a impasse. Deal with it.

    I won't admit I was being deceitful, because the information I was given a while ago goes against the email you received, and that MSP possibly changed their minds and didn't tell anybody. Again.

    Your childish rant about people on the internet is probably why you were given the answer that you were. The response was going to be heavy handed, just from that statement. Now we'll probably have the minions of MSP and other organizations all over this place because of your pettiness. Thanks for screwing us over.

    You are no ally to the cause.

    The truth hurts

    Now you know why you should not rely on a private email from the MSP. They do not always get things correct.

    Their response had nothing to do with my claim about the people on the internet. It had everything to do with the law.

    I did not screw everyone over. I have made sure that people do not lose their ability to own firearms by misunderstanding the law.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    I won't admit I was being deceitful, because the information I was given a while ago goes against the email you received, and that MSP possibly changed their minds and didn't tell anybody. Again.

    NO.

    REALLY???

    They would do that?

    sarcasm off.

    Remember, <29" SBRs were legal for a while after FSA2013 went into affect.

    Originally SBRs were exempt from any of the copy cat provisions.

    Then they only had to meet the 29" rule.

    It seems now, they have to meet the other copy cat provisions.

    Which is one reason, I make my AR SBRs HBAR. Just in case they change their minds again.
     

    MG-70

    Active Member
    Jul 8, 2007
    165
    MoCo
    It appears Crazy Uncle Joe is going to make us register AR pistols that have a stabilizing brace as a SBR.

    Are SBR's legal in MD? I'm pretty much up to speed on MD's stupid "so-called assault weapons" laws, but clueless about SBR's in MD...never had one. TIA.

    If the brace is what's making libs crap their pants this time around, wouldn't it be easier, and cheaper, to simply remove the brace?

    If someone really wants to give the gov more money, and doesn't make the magical OAL, then they can have a long muzzle device, or hollow tube, silver soldered or pinned and welded like back in the Monica Lewinsky 15 minutes of fame days.

    If registering an SBR now, then sure, follow the requirements, no matter how stupid, but like others, I wouldn't change anything on a pistol, until the rules actually change. I can't think of one politician that doesn't talk out of their bunghole; and the communists seem to think that repetition works on all minds, and not just those of the weak already in their ranks.
     

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