Transfering a colt LE AR15

Pinecone · Dec 4, 2013

NateIU10 said:
Right. Which is why you wouldn't sell a gun to an out of state person you did a 77r on, correct? I mean, MSP wouldn't have a "paper trail" in that situation, either, right? Once your name goes into the system on a 77r, that firearm is never taken off your name. There are a multitude of legal ways do dispose of a firearm that the MSP would not have a "paper trail" on.

Any out of state sale must go through an FFL. So you would have records showing the transfer to the FFL. The FFL would log the firearm in and out of their bound book.

So plenty of paper trail.

If you are really paranoid, have FFL send you a receipt when they get it. And if REALLY paranoid, have them copy the page of their bound book for you.

Pinecone · Dec 4, 2013

You could borrow it for now.

And when he dies (hopefully not anytime soon) you can inherit it.

But inheritance is the ONLY way to transfer a banned firearm in MD at this time.

NateIU10 · Dec 4, 2013

Pinecone said:
Any out of state sale must go through an FFL. So you would have records showing the transfer to the FFL. The FFL would log the firearm in and out of their bound book.

So plenty of paper trail.

If you are really paranoid, have FFL send you a receipt when they get it. And if REALLY paranoid, have them copy the page of their bound book for you.

His concern was MSP having a paper trail. That is not going to happen in the situation above. An FFL's paper trail in-state on an HBAR is the same as a MD banned rifle out of state sale. If you want a paper trail, there are ways to get one. I was simply stating that an HBAR is legal to transfer, and that if he wants to transfer a firearm, there is no such thing as once regulated always banned.

Pinecone said:
You could borrow it for now.

And when he dies (hopefully not anytime soon) you can inherit it.

But inheritance is the ONLY way to transfer a banned firearm in MD at this time.

Are you sure about that one? Possession is banned if not possessed pre-10/1. I know you state what a Trooper told you about possession not including a gratuitous loan, but I would not be telling people that it was completely fine without something more and/or liability insurance.

dagamant · Dec 4, 2013

Thanks for all of the responses, ill try to answer a few of the questions.
Is it an HBAR? no, it is not an HBAR

was it purchased as a regulated firearm? I don't know but my dad does not have an FFL so I don't believe so.

What does he want to do with it? he wants to either give it to me for xmas or keep it, he isn't interested in selling it off.

Why not have him will it to you? It already is.

you could just "borrow/hold it for him". True but he is not comfortable with that.

and now for a few more questions from me: HBAR is just a description of the barrel, if I bought a receiver myself could I just get all of the parts except that from him? which parts of the gun are actually regulated? Would swapping the barrel with an HBAR barrel be a legit way to try and get the gun transferred?

jtb81100 · Dec 4, 2013

dagamant said:
Thanks for all of the responses, ill try to answer a few of the questions.
Is it an HBAR? no, it is not an HBAR

was it purchased as a regulated firearm? I don't know but my dad does not have an FFL so I don't believe so.

What does he want to do with it? he wants to either give it to me for xmas or keep it, he isn't interested in selling it off.

Why not have him will it to you? It already is.

you could just "borrow/hold it for him". True but he is not comfortable with that.

and now for a few more questions from me: HBAR is just a description of the barrel, if I bought a receiver myself could I just get all of the parts except that from him? which parts of the gun are actually regulated? Would swapping the barrel with an HBAR barrel be a legit way to try and get the gun transferred?

Since it isn't already an HBAR, you should contact one of the pro gun lawyers listed in the Industry Partner sub-forum to see what your options REALLY are. This isn't something to take advice off a forum on. If you guys do something that ends up violating the law, you both risk losing your gun rights forever.

govwontletmebuycoolguns · Dec 4, 2013

I see a lot of different people shelling out a lot of different opinions in this thread.

What I get out of that is "WE DON'T KNOW".

Until we get an AG opinion or establish case law, I think it best to stick back in the safe.

IANAL

mopar92 · Dec 4, 2013

Ta da Mopar has da answer!
Buy an HBAR upper reciever. Or assemble (semantics really).
Go to FFL with HBAR AR-15 fill out 4473 to make paperwork/paper trail for MSP.
NEVER EVER EVER put the lightweight reciever on the HBAR IN THE STATE OF MD (illegal).
Take HBAR rifle and lightweight upper to a free state
Buy some freedom sized magazines use freedom upper and freedom sized magazines in free state.
Place HBAR upper back on lower reciever
Go back to Demokratic People's Republic of Marylandistan.
Wistfully remember the glorious nature of America while remembering to keep wistfulness below Politburo imposed limits.
Rinse and repeat.

annihilation-time · Dec 4, 2013

Bertfish said:
No. If it was sold as a "regulated firearm" originally that is how it is forever. Your only option is to sell it out of state

There's nothing in Maryland law to support this statement.

annihilation-time · Dec 4, 2013

mopar92 said:
Ta da Mopar has da answer!
Buy an HBAR upper reciever. Or assemble (semantics really).
Go to FFL with HBAR AR-15 fill out 4473 to make paperwork/paper trail for MSP.

This is what I'd do.

Build the non-regulated long gun and legally transfer through a FFL.

NateIU10 · Dec 5, 2013

annihilation-time said:
This is what I'd do.

Build the non-regulated long gun and legally transfer through a FFL.

Nothing makes it illegal to do a FTF on. If you think it creates more of a paper trail, go for it, but if it may be transferred via an FFL, it can be sold FTF without an FFL. It's about comfort level I guess.

Jimbob2.0 · Dec 5, 2013

annihilation-time said:
This is what I'd do.

Build the non-regulated long gun and legally transfer through a FFL.

This one is a headscratcher for me too, I havent found anything to this. But on the other hand I havent reviewed the whole body of caselaw either.

Generally Maryland is going to have a lot of problems with verification across the board.

I can think of ways to wiggle around this but in general it isnt worth it, go buy a HBAR gun at $700 or so. Have your father save it and will it to you.

dagamant · Dec 5, 2013

Jimbob2.0 said:
This one is a headscratcher for me too, I havent found anything to this. But on the other hand I havent reviewed the whole body of caselaw either.

Generally Maryland is going to have a lot of problems with verification across the board.

I can think of ways to wiggle around this but in general it isnt worth it, go buy a HBAR gun at $700 or so. Have your father save it and will it to you.

After reading the law that was created in 2013 I think that making the gun into an HBAR would make it transferable(or should) there is nothing in there about modifying a gun to remove assault weapon features. The gun has 2, possibly 3 features of an assault weapon: Flash Suppressor, the ability to accept a grenade/flare launcher and an adjustable stock. I will be contacting a lawyer to get a clear answer since some people here say "once regulated, always regulated" is the way that Maryland operates.
If rebuilding it does not allow it to be transferred then we may be able to get a signed affidavit that states that the gun was purchased for me before October 1st but never transferred correctly which should also allow for the transfer of the gun.

Pinecone · Dec 5, 2013

NateIU10 said:
His concern was MSP having a paper trail. That is not going to happen in the situation above. An FFL's paper trail in-state on an HBAR is the same as a MD banned rifle out of state sale. If you want a paper trail, there are ways to get one. I was simply stating that an HBAR is legal to transfer, and that if he wants to transfer a firearm, there is no such thing as once regulated always banned.

Are you sure about that one? Possession is banned if not possessed pre-10/1. I know you state what a Trooper told you about possession not including a gratuitous loan, but I would not be telling people that it was completely fine without something more and/or liability insurance.

The only way for MSP to have a paper trail is to file a Form 77. I wonder what they would do if you sent in one for a non-regulated firearm???

It would depend on what possession entailed. We know that loans are not transfers. But, I guess to avoid being the test case, best would be only to have BOTH father (owner) and son at the range together.

Pinecone · Dec 5, 2013

dagamant said:
Thanks for all of the responses, ill try to answer a few of the questions.
Is it an HBAR? no, it is not an HBAR

was it purchased as a regulated firearm? I don't know but my dad does not have an FFL so I don't believe so.

What does he want to do with it? he wants to either give it to me for xmas or keep it, he isn't interested in selling it off.

Why not have him will it to you? It already is.

you could just "borrow/hold it for him". True but he is not comfortable with that.

and now for a few more questions from me: HBAR is just a description of the barrel, if I bought a receiver myself could I just get all of the parts except that from him? which parts of the gun are actually regulated? Would swapping the barrel with an HBAR barrel be a legit way to try and get the gun transferred?

Him having an FFL has nothing to do with whether it was purchased as regulated or not. Can he remember if he had to fill out TWO forms, and wait before taking possession, or did he fill out one form and carry it out with him. And then, when did he buy it. He may have purchased before there were regulated long guns.

He cannot give it to you. ONLY way to transfer it is by inheritance.

You cannot buy a receiver any longer. Since they can be built into banned configuration, it is treated as banned. Many of us do not agree that it should be that way, but you will find a hard time finding a FFL to sell you one.

And anyway, buying a receiver and swapping all his parts on to it, is making a banned configuration of firearm. NOT good.

You might be the test case if you change the barrel to an HBAR then transfer it. Might be legal, might be trouble.

I would just buy an HBAR. If he wants to get rid of the current rifle, sell it out of state. Or keep it and you get it eventually.

Ab_Normal · Dec 5, 2013

There is soo much BGOS in this thread it hakes my eyes cross.

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