1903A3 Info Request

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  • Madcap

    Everybody Loves Mad!
    Nov 5, 2013
    19
    Hello Fellow Shooters!

    For quite some time, I've been entertaining the idea of hunting for a 1903A3 rifle as my first 'long gun'. I own other guns and shot plenty rifles, but currently do not own a rifle of any kind. It has been a childhood dream of mine and I love the look of the wood. Now I've got funds to play around with.

    I"ve been hunting online for various information regarding them, but the price ranges and etc. are a little perplexing. My intention for this is to mainly be a range and nostalgia piece. I'm seeing individual prices range from $600+ to $2,000+ for the various types of 1903s, and I am seeing the A3s for generally around $900. Would this be a realistic price point?

    More specifically, would this be a realistic price point in the MD area? I'll try and buy from a private individual, followed by local stores, before I go looking on various sites. Gotta keep it in the MD family; if all goes well here I'll throw a post up on WTB shortly.

    Serial Numbers and Manufacturers? I'm a little in the dark as to how these play into the various rifles. I would assume that lower serial numbers are more valued by collectors, but I am not looking for a collection piece never to be fired. If anyone has information regarding this I'd greatly appreciate hearing it. Should I avoid any particular manufacturer or serial number range if I intend to fire the rifle on a not-so-semi-regular basis? (once or twice per year;It's MD, I have to travel a ways for rifle ranges).

    After I've found a rifle, are there any things to disqualify it as a good rifle? Anything that I should be aware of in advance that would dissuade any of you from make a purchase after seeing one in person? How should I inspect a rifle such as this?

    If you need more info or anything else let me know and I'll attempt to provide it. Thanks all!
     

    mopar92

    Official MDS Court Jester
    May 5, 2011
    9,513
    Taneytown
    As you are looking for a hunting rifle my recommendation would be a rebuilt 1903A3 from James River Armory. With that you get a warranty and a new Criterion barrel so you're less likely to get a bad bore. Unfortunately there would be little to no collector value.

    As for serial numbers. 800,000 and BELOW made at Springfield Armory and 286,506 made at Rock Island armory may be improperly heat treated. Those shouldn't be fired and are more of wall hangers.

    But honestly I would recommend a modern rifle for hunting due to accessories. Ease of mounting scopes, bipods and slings make a great argument for the modern firearms.
     

    BigDaddy

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 7, 2014
    2,235
    As for serial numbers. 800,000 and BELOW made at Springfield Armory and 286,506 made at Rock Island armory may be improperly heat treated. Those shouldn't be fired and are more of wall hangers.

    Those numbers pertain to the pre A3, however there are others, A3's, made from parts, with cast rather than forged receivers with much higher serial numbers. Those would be National Ordnance and Santa Fe with bad reputations.

    I assume you are looking for the Sgt York look vs a customized hunting rifle. Nothing wrong with the later, they were the raw materials for some of the finest gunsmiths back in the day. Price wise, you do the best at an auctions, someone just bought one a couple weeks ago out of PA
    http://www.amauctions.com/9th-annual-firearm-mens-night-auction-january-30-2014/

    There are 2 03's listed in the upcoming Parsonburg auction: http://tinyurl.com/ptg84bt
     

    chooks9

    Bear with Arms
    Jan 3, 2013
    1,155
    Abingdon
    Hello Fellow Shooters!

    For quite some time, I've been entertaining the idea of hunting for a 1903A3 rifle as my first 'long gun'. I own other guns and shot plenty rifles, but currently do not own a rifle of any kind. It has been a childhood dream of mine and I love the look of the wood. Now I've got funds to play around with.

    I"ve been hunting online for various information regarding them, but the price ranges and etc. are a little perplexing. My intention for this is to mainly be a range and nostalgia piece. I'm seeing individual prices range from $600+ to $2,000+ for the various types of 1903s, and I am seeing the A3s for generally around $900. Would this be a realistic price point?

    More specifically, would this be a realistic price point in the MD area? I'll try and buy from a private individual, followed by local stores, before I go looking on various sites. Gotta keep it in the MD family; if all goes well here I'll throw a post up on WTB shortly.

    Serial Numbers and Manufacturers? I'm a little in the dark as to how these play into the various rifles. I would assume that lower serial numbers are more valued by collectors, but I am not looking for a collection piece never to be fired. If anyone has information regarding this I'd greatly appreciate hearing it. Should I avoid any particular manufacturer or serial number range if I intend to fire the rifle on a not-so-semi-regular basis? (once or twice per year;It's MD, I have to travel a ways for rifle ranges).

    After I've found a rifle, are there any things to disqualify it as a good rifle? Anything that I should be aware of in advance that would dissuade any of you from make a purchase after seeing one in person? How should I inspect a rifle such as this?

    If you need more info or anything else let me know and I'll attempt to provide it. Thanks all!

    First of all, those lurking please call me out if I give bad info...I'm going by memory here. Also, add anything that I missed...

    The 1903A3 is a great military bolt gun that is very Mauser-like, since the Springfield 1903 is a Mauser 98 derivative. I think they have a great number of advantages if you can get over a few of the "weaknesses." Like others have said, there are heat-treat issues with earlier guns. No 1903A3 will fit in this bunch of guns. All 1903A3's were built much later than these guns. 1903A3s are historic guns that were used in WWII by both second line, front line, and training personnel. I have seen photos of a WWII Navy sentry in the Pacific carrying an 03-A3.

    Some differences/characteristics of the 1903A3:

    -Made during WWII by both Remington and Smith Corona. Remington guns are more common, but for some reason all I am finding recently are Smith Corona guns (mine is a nice Smith Corona). I don't believe there are major differences in quality between the two.

    -Many 03-A3s (later production guns) have two-groove barrels. There is no major difference between the two groove and earlier 4 or 6 groove barrels, so I have been told. Some early Smith Corona guns have 6-groove barrels, allegedly made by High Standard using Savage-produced blanks. Some find these to be better/more valuable than 2 or 4 groove barrels. Barrels are dated just behind the sight, and will have a manufacturer mark (RAor SC), month, and year.

    -Lots o' stamped parts to make production easier/faster (barrel bands, magazine floorplate/trigger guard, etc.). The sights are made of stampings too. They still work very well.

    -Speaking of sights, they are much different than older 1903 sights. They are mounted on the rear receiver bridge and are very similar in function to later M1 Carbine adjustable sights. Personally, I like the 03A3 sights better than earlier 1903 sights forward of the bolt, which can be very small. Also, some 03-A3s have a stamped front sight protector, which some either like (like me) or hate (like my dad).

    -The magazine has a cutoff like the standard 1903. The ON/OFF switch for the cutoff is also used to take the bolt out.

    -Stocks: There are three varieties. There's a straight grip (most common I think), a 'C' stock that has a full pistol grip (rarer), and a 'scant' stock that is a sort of "half-pistol grip" (less common but not rare like the 'C'). Mine has a scant stock and I like it. Look for stock cartouches on the left side near the back of the receiver, just behind the trigger guard, and just ahead of the magazine floorplate under the gun.

    -The safety is similar to a Mauser 98, but only has two safety positions (fire and safe/bolt lock). The safety uses a ball-detent system that can cause problems for some, but I personally like it.

    -Finally, these guns were all parkerized IIRC. Some had a black/gray finish, others had a greenish finish.

    I would consider $550-750 as a fair price for a good-to-very good condition and unbubba-d 03-A3. Recently at the York gun show, I got a Smith Corona (all correct with correct stock cartouches and excellent six-groove bore) for $650 after some haggling.

    If you can't find an 1903A3, another option could be a Remington-produced 1903. They made 1903 rifles early in WWII before the A3 modifications were implemented. These will not be subject to the heat treatment problems of earlier 1903 rifles and are often slightly cheaper when found.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,278
    HoCo
    C&R section would have more experts but I got my Smith Corona 1943 serial number at the Chantilly show. Ranges were $595 to $695 this spring for the average 1903a3. Mine was more rare and had a muzzle reading of 0.5 (had my own muzzle gauge)
    The $595 one had a shot out bore. The guy I got it from was from MD and very honest (talked to him before) about what he had and why they were priced like they were.

    Great gun and my most accurate rifle with iron sights. With CMP Greek surplus it usually shoots 2moa and only cause it's iron sights and my eyes are restricting it.
     

    Madcap

    Everybody Loves Mad!
    Nov 5, 2013
    19
    I thank you all for the responses so far.

    I'll try and hit points 1 by 1, if I can.

    Mopar92: I'll definitely take a look at the James River Armory re-furbs. Modern rifles are quite good and dandy, but I'm not really looking into a hunting rifle; more so a nostalgia piece that I can still throw the occasional 30.06 round around with. From the other respondent's comments, I should be in the clear for the improper heating treatment if I go with the A3 variant, but thanks for spelling out what to avoid if I choose to go another route.

    BigDaddy:
    Note to self: stay away from the National Ordnance and Santa Fe's. Thanks for letting me know about those and the serial numbers. That's one of the reasons I was more comfortable looking into the later variant 1903s. Hopefully less problems in the design and manufacture. I do like the "Sgt. York" look, haha. It will be more of a wall-piece than a hunting rifle.

    Chooks9: Thanks for explaining this at length. The internet contains all of this, but it certainly can be a difficult task to track it all down and understand it. So I appreciate you taking the time to put it all in front of my face. I've seen many Remington and Smith Corona's advertised, I will keep my searching based on those two manufacturers. I'll take a look at some of the stock options and various other barrels while I'm out there rummaging through the internet.

    I don't expect to have an easy time finding one of these, but I'm willing to wait a while. Your price point is actually less than I expected; hell, I expected it to go up. As I said, I'll toss a wanted to buy add out on WTB first, see what I can see. I'll then start moving around to gun shows and dealers outside of MD. Again, thanks for laying everything out if it comes to the point where I have to get to gun shows and auctions, then your assistance will be tantamount in wading through.

    Thanks everyone! if you have any additional comments, please keep 'em coming!
     

    Madcap

    Everybody Loves Mad!
    Nov 5, 2013
    19
    It seems as though a lot of you have gotten them from gun shows, which I'm sure may be my best bet of finding one outside of the internet.

    I'm quite happy to say that I'm expecting to pay less than I thought for one. I appreciate all of your responses. I'll try and look for the original rifles before I look into the refurbs and rebore drill rifles.
     

    Abulg1972

    Ultimate Member
    This is a very hard issue with which to help you because price depends so much on what, exactly, you're looking for. If you want a shooter and don't care so much about whether the stock has all the cartouches and inspection marks, whether the bolt and small parts are blued or parked, etc., then you're looking at the $500 - $750 price point. If you want all those things because you want something as correct as possible, then you're in the $1,100 - $1,600 price point. And everything in between.


    Andy

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    stu929

    M1 Addict
    Jan 2, 2012
    6,605
    Hagerstown
    If you are anywhere other than md a3 will be a fair amount less. As it is with everything the md premium seems to make them quite a bit more here. I would check pawn shops for budda jobs that are worth saving. I lucked out and found a great candidate at a very reasonable price all I had to do was put a stock on it.

    Good luck!
     

    Augie

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 30, 2007
    4,504
    Central MD
    The ones that came from the CMP may not be the best ones out there,while they have had a few nice ones they have had far more rough ones, Greek returns that were pretty beat up, returns from Veterans organizations that were used to fire blanks at funerals and never cleaned, real bad bores.
    The majority of real nice ones came from the 50's and 60's thru the NRA sales program, a lot of these were unissued or unissued after rebuild,many in sealed bags. May have been available thru the DCM also before it became CMP.
    I have a like new Smith Corona that was most likely one of these, it is a post war rebuild although it looks like the only thing done was to put a Remington stock on it, metal is like new.
     

    Madcap

    Everybody Loves Mad!
    Nov 5, 2013
    19
    This is a very hard issue with which to help you because price depends so much on what, exactly, you're looking for. If you want a shooter and don't care so much about whether the stock has all the cartouches and inspection marks, whether the bolt and small parts are blued or parked, etc., then you're looking at the $500 - $750 price point. If you want all those things because you want something as correct as possible, then you're in the $1,100 - $1,600 price point. And everything in between.


    Andy

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I think i'm looking for more of a shooter than a perfect original. I'm not set on having everything be perfect. I suppose the problem is that I'm not entirely sure how these factors all play in to one another and how that affects price. Up until this reply I was reasonably sure that I could find an original for around $750; now, i'm not so sure. It is a lot to sort through. So, i'm taking everything into account.

    Luckily, I do have the time to sit back and explore options and what I truly want out of this rifle.
     

    Madcap

    Everybody Loves Mad!
    Nov 5, 2013
    19
    The ones that came from the CMP may not be the best ones out there,while they have had a few nice ones they have had far more rough ones, Greek returns that were pretty beat up, returns from Veterans organizations that were used to fire blanks at funerals and never cleaned, real bad bores.
    The majority of real nice ones came from the 50's and 60's thru the NRA sales program, a lot of these were unissued or unissued after rebuild,many in sealed bags. May have been available thru the DCM also before it became CMP.
    I have a like new Smith Corona that was most likely one of these, it is a post war rebuild although it looks like the only thing done was to put a Remington stock on it, metal is like new.
    Something I'm having a little bit of trouble with is the refurb v. original v. re-bore(d)rifles I'm seeing advertised and spoken about here.

    Would you say that the refurbs or 'mismatched' rifles are worth the investment? I may not want a perfect original, but I certainly don't want a POS. Another individual posted about Sarco in PA. It seems like a good deal, but I don't know enough about them to make an informed decision. Would you care to weigh in?
     

    ken792

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 2, 2011
    4,480
    Fairfax, VA
    Something I'm having a little bit of trouble with is the refurb v. original v. re-bore(d)rifles I'm seeing advertised and spoken about here.

    Would you say that the refurbs or 'mismatched' rifles are worth the investment? I may not want a perfect original, but I certainly don't want a POS. Another individual posted about Sarco in PA. It seems like a good deal, but I don't know enough about them to make an informed decision. Would you care to weigh in?

    Yes, refurbs and mismatched rifles are definitely worth the investment. The majority of US service rifles are. Since US rifles do not have every single part serial numbered and machining was good enough that parts were interchangeable, no one cared much about keeping parts together.

    Most 03A3's will have the original barrels since they were not used very much. Unless it's a completely original and correct rifle, I don't think whether it has the original barrel would have too much impact on its value. I'd worry more about whether the barrel has any pitting (most have a little frosting, not a big deal) and how it gauges.

    The Sarco ones are rebuilt drill rifles. They are perfectly fine shooters, but they won't hold their value as well as one that was never welded up into a drill rifle. Think of it as buying a brand new gun at retail.
     

    Augie

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 30, 2007
    4,504
    Central MD
    03 and 03A3"s are kind of like Garands, most have been rebuilt maybe even multiple times. There is no real way to make sure that all parts are correct as 03 parts are not serialized. They do however have parts that may be attributed to certain manufacturers by marks or characteristics.
    Best you can hope for is all parts match these characteristics, you pretty well need a good 03 book to learn what you are looking at.
    If you want a shooter might look at a James River rebuild, if you want an original rifle I just look for nice wood with some cartouches, nice metal with USGI finish's and a good shiny bore with sharp rifling and good muzzle.
    Also with an 03 you don't want a Springfield with a serial number below 850,000 or a 286,000 for Rock Island as heat treatment of receiver was questionable. 03A3's don't matter ass all were far above that.
     

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