ATF Is Classifying .50 Cal Bolt Action AR Uppers As Firearm

DC-W · Jul 30, 2018

Via The Firearms Blog
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...ying-50-cal-bolt-action-ar-uppers-as-firearm/

Be sure to read the article in full.

iH8DemLibz · Jul 30, 2018

MGA: AR15 Uppers Are Firearms And Must Be Registered Act Of 2019.

John from MD · Jul 30, 2018

NSSF needs to challenge this ruling. An AR upper doesn't meet the test of 478.11 as it does not contain the firing mechanism period. These guys are trying to change the regulations through policy making. Their swamp needs to be drained and cemented over. :mad54:

3paul10 · Jul 30, 2018

That decision scares me.....

iH8DemLibz · Jul 30, 2018

3paul10 said:
That decision scares me.....

It should.

Begs the question: Who is directing them to do this.

First Bump Stocks. Now AR15 Style Uppers.

Sounds to me like there's a group of folks trying to reclassify firearm related products. Once reclassified, precedent is set. Once precedent is set, many other firearm related products can be reclassified too.

I'm sure glad the Republican Trifecta Machine is in charge.

smdub · Jul 30, 2018

There is precedence (and personally I think they are in the right once I really think about it)

HK91/93/95, FAL, garand: the 'upper' is the firearm and not the trigger housing. They can be fed and safely fired WITHOUT the trigger pack just by reaching in and whacking the firing pin with something. You can weld the firing pin in position and they will all mag dump in full auto.

AR10/15: the lower is the firearm but it ALSO houses the ammo feed AND recoil components. The upper cannot be fired safely on its own (no way to feed ammo and the bolt would shoot out the rear even if you fired one round whacking/welding the firing pin.)

A single shot bolt action like the SH 50 = pretty much the same as any other bolt action. The AR15 lower in this case does nothing but house the trigger mechanism. Not the ammo feed/magazine or the recoil mechanism. It can be fed and fired safely without the trigger pack (lower). A typ single shot bolt action the part that houses the bolt & barrel is always the receiver, never the trigger pack. The SH 50 seems to pretty clearly fit that definition.

CrazySanMan · Jul 30, 2018

So that rifle is 2 firearms in one!?!?!?

iH8DemLibz · Jul 30, 2018

smdub said:
There is precedence (and personally I think they are in the right once I really think about it)

HK91/93/95, FAL, garand: the 'upper' is the firearm and not the trigger housing. They can be fed and safely fired WITHOUT the trigger pack just by reaching in and whacking the firing pin with something. You can weld the firing pin in position and they will all mag dump in full auto.

AR10/15: the lower is the firearm but it ALSO houses the ammo feed AND recoil components. The upper cannot be fired safely on its own (no way to feed ammo and the bolt would shoot out the rear even if you fired one round whacking/welding the firing pin.)

A single shot bolt action like the SH 50 = pretty much the same as any other bolt action. The AR15 lower in this case does nothing but house the trigger mechanism. Not the ammo feed/magazine or the recoil mechanism. It can be fed and fired safely without the trigger pack (lower). A typ single shot bolt action the part that houses the bolt & barrel is always the receiver, never the trigger pack. The SH 50 seems to pretty clearly fit that definition.

Does the SH50 upper and bolt combination contain the hammer?

smdub · Jul 30, 2018

iH8DemLibz said:
Does the SH50 upper and bolt combination contain the hammer?

No, but neither do most bolt action rifles that use trigger packs. (Like a remington 700)

iH8DemLibz · Jul 30, 2018

CrazySanMan said:
So that rifle is 2 firearms in one!?!?!?

Maybe someone can define what a Non-Standard AR15 is.

.300BLK?

.458 SOCOM?

iH8DemLibz · Jul 30, 2018

smdub said:
No, but neither do most bolt action rifles that use trigger packs.

In a standard bolt action rifle, the cocking piece, in my opinion, serves as the hammer.

The cocking piece is pulled rearward when the bolt is rotated. Thereby stretching the firing pin spring. When released, that assembly, the hammer, causes the rifle to fire.

None of this takes place in the SH-50.

The ATF got this one wrong.

PS: Who will be making 80% upper receivers first. Correct guess wins an internet cookie.

erwos · Jul 30, 2018

iH8DemLibz said:
The ATF got this one wrong.

Maybe. I see where the ATF is coming from in the sense that:
1. The upper contains the magazine and/or is single shot.
2. The recoil system (as it were) is self-contained.
3. You could fire it more-or-less safely (in theory) by smacking the firing pin while it's locked up.

The guys who should also be worried are the AR-57 crowd, who have a setup which is not entirely dissimilar from this. But you also can't fire that safely by just hitting the firing pin, unless you like having a bolt carrier fly out.

The real downside to this ruling is that selling the rifles would seem to involve TWO firearms - one for your upper, one for your lower. I think this would render them more-or-less un-importable (which I suspect was the real endgame here).

smdub · Jul 30, 2018

iH8DemLibz said:
The ATF got this one wrong.

Why?

"That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel."

The rules don't say it HAS to include the hammer, just the housing. The receiver "provides housing" for the hammer/firing mechanism. The SH 50 "provides housing" through the use of the two pins. Just because it hangs external doesn't change that. The ATF letter specifically calls out bolt action uppers.

There are firearms w/ two receivers. There are MG43(34?) kits that use an AR15 lower as the firing mechanism. Those have been ruled as two receivers. This is nothing new.

erwos · Jul 30, 2018

I wonder if, in theory, they could redesign it in a fashion where it would simply not fire without the lower being attached. Some sort of safety mechanism? Not sure how that would work, but that's why they make the big bucks.

iH8DemLibz · Jul 30, 2018

smdub said:
Why?

"That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel."

The rules don't say it HAS to include the hammer, just the housing. The receiver "provides housing" for the hammer/firing mechanism. The SH 50 "provides housing" through the use of the two pins. Just because it hangs external doesn't change that. The ATF letter specifically calls out bolt action uppers.

There are firearms w/ two receivers. There are MG43(34?) kits that use an AR15 lower as the firing mechanism. Those have been ruled as two receivers. This is nothing new.

I do not see the word MAY anywhere in that statement.

Provides housing for the hammer. As in: The housing contains the hammer.

It doesn't say: That part of the firearm that MAY provide housing for the hammer.

smdub · Jul 30, 2018

iH8DemLibz said:
I do not see the word MAY anywhere in that statement.

Provides housing for the hammer. As in: The housing contains the hammer.

It doesn't say: That part of the firearm that MAY provide housing for the hammer.

By your logic an AR, HK, FAL, etc have no receivers at all as the lowers don't contain the "bolt or breech block". A remington 700 apparently isn't a firearm either as the part that contains the "firing mechanism" is a trigger pack housing and not the receiver.

As seen in MANY other firearms, they just take the half that contains the most parts in the list. That is the upper in a bolt action AR and the lower in a semi-auto AR. What they have done follows prior logic.

jrumann59 · Jul 30, 2018

iH8DemLibz said:
Maybe someone can define what a Non-Standard AR15 is.

.300BLK?

.458 SOCOM?

My GUESS is one that does not use the DI system to help in loading and ejecting of rounds. With an exception being the pump action AR which would be different than a bolt action since the pump mimics the DI movement and uses similar BCG.

Now do I think this is splitting hairs, yes, and the question is why is that. Was some manufacturer trying to corner market on 50BMG and this is a ruling that falls under "unintended consequences".

Now if this upper works like all other bolt guns then I can see the logic. But they do need to clean up the letter and get it sharper since this letter is overly broad and could effect many types of uppers like belt fed, ar57

Gambler · Jul 30, 2018

Oddly, when I first got into firearms, I thought it was strange that the lower was classified as the "firearm". It made more sense that the upper should be the "firearm". But that ship has sailed, this is a sad attempt to accomplish what exactly? Whatever they do, they'll have to grandfather millions of firearms rendering this useless.

Alea Jacta Est · Jul 30, 2018

Infringement

clandestine · Jul 30, 2018

Sounds like they need to ship the upper as an 80%

ATF Is Classifying .50 Cal Bolt Action AR Uppers As Firearm

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