LOP Limiters for AR Pistol Buffer Tube?

SkiPatrolDude · Apr 17, 2020

https://www.sb-tactical.com/product/lopl-length-of-pull-limiter/

Anyone have any of these? I need one to limit the LOP of an SBA4 brace for an AR pistol that has a Law Tactical Folder. Fully extended would result in about 14in LOP which is a grey area for ATF since it's over 13.5

They've been sold out for a while. Blocking the last position should put me a hair under 13.5 fully extended so I will be G2G.

I'd prefer not to take JB weld to my buffer tube. I've seen some schematics online for 3d printed versions, but don't have access to that either.

I know the 13.5 LOP isn't "rule of law", but since this is a dedicated HD set up, I wan't to be overly careful and leave no room for questions.

I prefer this method because it's a product developed by SB, for SB braces, who have done their due diligence with the ATF.

outrider58 · Apr 17, 2020

I'm confused. There is no LOP for a pistol, right? What am i missing?

SkiPatrolDude · Apr 17, 2020

outrider58 said:
I'm confused. There is no LOP for a pistol, right? What am i missing?

Here's a resource for some information on the subject:

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/keeping-your-ar-15-pistol-build-within-legal-limits/

“The ATF has advised that a braced pistol with a length of pull in excess of 13.5 inches may constitute a re-design of the brace into a stock.”

So, many have concluded while there is no official letter stating this is law, there are actual cases where "LOP" from butt of the brace to trigger has been used to determine "intent". Basically, they say that 13.5 or greater, may constitute a redesign because it can be justified that the LOP has been set this way with the intent to shoulder it.

AFAIK, no one has been successfully prosecuted for this, but I would rather take steps to avoid any of this legal BS.

outrider58 · Apr 17, 2020

SkiPatrolDude said:
Here's a resource for some information on the subject:

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/keeping-your-ar-15-pistol-build-within-legal-limits/

“The ATF has advised that a braced pistol with a length of pull in excess of 13.5 inches may constitute a re-design of the brace into a stock.”

So, many have concluded while there is no official letter stating this is law, there are actual cases where "LOP" from butt of the brace to trigger has been used to determine "intent". Basically, they say that 13.5 or greater, may constitute a redesign because it can be justified that the LOP has been set this way with the intent to shoulder it.

AFAIK, no one has been successfully prosecuted for this, but I would rather take steps to avoid any of this legal BS.

Oh, okay. Hmmm...

The part you seek isn't permanent is it? If it isn't, I don't see how it can held as law.

delaware_export · Apr 17, 2020

There was an article a whole back about a guy being arrested/charged on the “long pistol” LOP a whole back.

I forget where it was published, but it had pictures of the tube/brace and measurements. The article discussed that it was a grey area. I don’t recall how the case finally ended.

They did discuss the fact that it wasn’t a widely published ?rule? And how would an average citizen be aware.

SkiPatrolDude · Apr 17, 2020

outrider58 said:
Oh, okay. Hmmm...

The part you seek isn't permanent is it? If it isn't, I don't see how it can held as law.

If I am not mistaken, this product was designed specifically to address this issue.

From looking at the cases brought by the ATF, it really all comes down to intent, is my understanding. It's not illegal to have a pistol brace that is longer, but the ATF stated that it could provide the justification that it was redesigned with the intent to shoulder it as a stock. For example, those little rubber things that some people have put on the loose ends of the brace to keep them together - this is a no go modification because it removes it's functionality to be used around the forearm as a brace, potentially justifying the users intent to use it as a stock.

In all the cases I can find, it was ruled that intent was not there, so they were thrown out...but making a small modification to avoid this in the first place is, IMO, worth it. If the ATF could bring any evidence that the "redesign" resulted from your intent to shoulder the weapon, you could have big problems.

So I do not think the concern is whether a modification is permanent or not, but rather, do the modifications show intent to be used as a stock or as a brace? Using these LOP limiters, according to the ATF opinion of 13.5in LOP, would then support my intent for it to be used only as a brace, whilst retaining it's ability to be "occasionally shouldered".

This all hurts my head. Oh and I am NOT a lawyer.

outrider58 · Apr 17, 2020

SkiPatrolDude said:
If I am not mistaken, this product was designed specifically to address this issue.

From looking at the cases brought by the ATF, it really all comes down to intent, is my understanding. It's not illegal to have a pistol brace that is longer, but the ATF stated that it could provide the justification that it was redesigned with the intent to shoulder it as a stock. For example, those little rubber things that some people have put on the loose ends of the brace to keep them together - this is a no go modification because it removes it's functionality to be used around the forearm as a brace, potentially justifying the users intent to use it as a stock.

In all the cases I can find, it was ruled that intent was not there, so they were thrown out...but making a small modification to avoid this in the first place is, IMO, worth it. If the ATF could bring any evidence that the redesign resulted in your intent to shoulder the weapon, you could have big problems.

So I do not think the concern is weather a modification is permanent or not, but rather, do the modifications show intent to be used as a stock or as a brace? Using these LOP limiters, according to the ATF opinion of 13.5in LOP, would then indicate the intent for it to be used only as a brace, whilst retaining it's ability to be "occasionally shouldered".

This all hurts my head. Oh and I am NOT a lawyer.

I understand your concern.

You know, if you are the least bit handy, it wouldn't be hard to make one out of wood.

SkiPatrolDude · Apr 17, 2020

outrider58 said:
I understand your concern.

You know, if you are the least bit handy, it wouldn't be hard to make one out of wood.

I could certainly make one or just JB weld the last position, but the SB product that was made specifically for this just seems like the best option. Becomes an easier argument, in my eyes, if ever the intent of the brace were ever called into question.

I am sure I am being overly cautious, but being my primary HD rig, I am choosing to be that way.

erwos · Apr 17, 2020

If it comes down to intent, about 90% of braced pistol owners are guilty of illegal SBRs no matter what their LOP is. No one's fooled, guys.

OP, if you are really desperate, I can 3D print this one for you:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3887345

SkiPatrolDude · Apr 17, 2020

erwos said:
If it comes down to intent, about 90% of braced pistol owners are guilty of illegal SBRs no matter what their LOP is. No one's fooled, guys.

OP, if you are really desperate, I can 3D print this one for you:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3887345

Yes but to argue intent in a court of law, the burden of proof is on the prosecution, so keeping your pistol brace within every interpretation of the law is a sure way to win that argument every time.

I recall in one of the cases, the guys official defense was that the brace he had (a cheek brace, speficically), was put on to "keep it propped up in his safe"....if I was on the Jury I would have rolled my eyes hard upon hearing that, but hey, satisfies the argument of intent, meaning he did not put it on for the intent of shouldering....but for propping up instead lol.

If asked by a police officer or ATF agent how you use your brace, a perfectly acceptable answer is "as a brace" or simply no answer at all. If you are an idiot and are prone to self incrimination, then perhaps an AR pistol isn't for you.

Oh and erwos - thank you for the offer. I will certainly keep you in mind. I am going to hold out for a bit and see if SB restocks them anytime soon.

Slowhand · Apr 19, 2020

SkiPatrolDude said:
I could certainly make one or just JB weld the last position, but the SB product that was made specifically for this just seems like the best option. Becomes an easier argument, in my eyes, if ever the intent of the brace were ever called into question.

I am sure I am being overly cautious, but being my primary HD rig, I am choosing to be that way.

Make a model out of clay, tune it, bake it, make a female mold from it, fill it with JBWeld or epoxy, or human ashes mixed with liberal tears. Market to all the fearful.

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