My 1911 FTF issue

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  • Bullfrog

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 8, 2009
    15,162
    Carroll County
    I will load up some dummy rounds and verify the crimp
    With that light trigger I don’t want to mess with live rounds

    Here are the 3 mags I have
    Wilson combat, kimber, 8 round mystery mag
    b0438c85754dd5d70c251f16688fd6df.jpg


    I have mostly been using the 8 rounder

    The portion of the feed lips that grip the round seem to end sooner on the 8 rounder. I wonder if they're releasing the round too soon or letting it make too sharp of an angle.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    If you look at these two mags, the one one the bottom has the GI style feed lips ,it was designed to feed the 230 grain ball ammo that the gun was designed for. The one one the top with the tapered lips was designed buy Checkmate to feed SWC bullets , it allows the mag to release the cartridge sooner in the forward cycle.
    As I'm sure you are aware there are a lot of other variables in the operation of a 1911 but most feeding issues are caused by issues with the magazine.
    That's why I would advise trying other magazines before doing damage to an otherwise perfectly good gun.

    The stepped feed lips were developed for SWC bullets.

    The original GI mags had straight line tapers.

    Both of the mags in your picture are stepped lips.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    The portion of the feed lips that grip the round seem to end sooner on the 8 rounder. I wonder if they're releasing the round too soon or letting it make too sharp of an angle.

    Releasing the rim early makes the round feed straighter.

    Think about it, if you hold the rim down in the mag, the round it is feeding at an angle. If it releases early, it allows the round to feed straighter.
     

    Augie

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 30, 2007
    4,504
    Central MD
    Logic tells me that if you had no problem with factory ammo but are having problems with your reloads then the problem is with the reloads, do you have any pictures of your reloads, specifically the case mouth with the semi wadcutter seated?
    For what it's worth I've shot thousands of my semi wadcutter reloads through my Kimber and Springfield and I don't remember any failures.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Here is a loaded SWC
    The amount past the mouth is .050”


    71b69f33dd4322bc14e8924d94725403.jpg



    I did some tests with some dummy rounds pushing the OAL out and also less crimp trying to exaggerate the two to see if I could reproduce failures but it did not FTF (clean gun). But I did notice the dents that I see on failures.
    1e7421c84c94e6120da9457ca8e5e715.jpg


    I marked a line on the bottom so I could reuse the rounds and verify each time if it’s leaving a mark. The 8 rounder with the smooth lip transition does it like the picture with 8 rounds loaded. None of the mags did it with 5 loaded.
    8 rounder starts a light dent at 6
    Kimber will not dent at 7
    Wilson combat slight dent at 7 and none at 6

    I took calipers and measured when the mag releases a bullet and the kimber releases it the soonest and the 8 rounder the latest

    I also have a 8 round ATI mag that has the lips like the kimber and with 8 it’s only slight like the Wilson combat.

    With 8 rounds loaded with the first mag I can feel/ hear the delay in the feeding even when it’s a successful feed.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Pic for pinecone
    6bcdbbcaa1b1fbbe8ba7d44ad06d29b9.jpg


    Ledge where the case is getting dented (look at last photo of post 11)
    a1588eb41c683ace39da09c7c310e5fe.jpg



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    wilcam47

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 4, 2008
    25,979
    Changed zip code
    Here is a loaded SWC
    The amount past the mouth is .050”


    71b69f33dd4322bc14e8924d94725403.jpg



    I did some tests with some dummy rounds pushing the OAL out and also less crimp trying to exaggerate the two to see if I could reproduce failures but it did not FTF (clean gun). But I did notice the dents that I see on failures.
    1e7421c84c94e6120da9457ca8e5e715.jpg


    I marked a line on the bottom so I could reuse the rounds and verify each time if it’s leaving a mark. The 8 rounder with the smooth lip transition does it like the picture with 8 rounds loaded. None of the mags did it with 5 loaded.
    8 rounder starts a light dent at 6
    Kimber will not dent at 7
    Wilson combat slight dent at 7 and none at 6

    I took calipers and measured when the mag releases a bullet and the kimber releases it the soonest and the 8 rounder the latest

    I also have a 8 round ATI mag that has the lips like the kimber and with 8 it’s only slight like the Wilson combat.

    With 8 rounds loaded with the first mag I can feel/ hear the delay in the feeding even when it’s a successful feed.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    that bullet shape doesnt look like a good one for semi auto.
     

    Bullfrog

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 8, 2009
    15,162
    Carroll County
    Releasing the rim early makes the round feed straighter.

    Think about it, if you hold the rim down in the mag, the round it is feeding at an angle. If it releases early, it allows the round to feed straighter.

    I understand that, but I was probably unclear in the way I described what I had in mind.

    I meant that it looked like they might be releasing the middle part of the case early while still grasping the rim, due to the inconsistent taper. That would make the round angle more, and earlier, possibly hitting the top of the chamber.

    I've seen the parallel feed lips and the angled feed lips, but that last one doesn't look like either. They don't have a consistent angle to then at all.
     

    wilcam47

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 4, 2008
    25,979
    Changed zip code
    That bullet shape has been the standard for bullseye shooting with a 1911 before I learned about Bullseye shooting in the early sixties. The problem isn't the bullet.

    Theres many stories on both sides, diferent brand guns, mags etc..just cuz it works in yours doesnt mean it will in his...
     

    Trigger Time

    Amazed
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 23, 2013
    1,231
    Theres many stories on both sides, diferent brand guns, mags etc..just cuz it works in yours doesnt mean it will in his...

    That's for sure and especially with the 1911. There are a lot of things happening at the same time or within a split second and often what works cycling by hand does not work when actually firing the gun. I have magazines that never cause a failure in one gun but I cannot not get threw one mag without jamming in a different another gun. That's why I suggested trying a different magazine first.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    That was helpful...

    OP, remove the slide assembly and look for barrel bump. Kimbers are notorious for that. It will stall the feeding round as you illustrated in the pic. Barrel bump occurs when the curved section of the lower lugs just in front of the flat bump the slide stop pin. These will show up a shiny polish marks to deep curved depressions. If barrel bump is evident reduce the radius on the front of the lugs until the edge of the link pin hole just misses the bump location(s).

    If barrel bump is not the culprit try feeding a few dummy rounds with the extractor removed. If the feed event is greatly smoothed the extractor should be tuned and tension adjusted.


    I did not totally follow the first part
    I did remove the extractor and it fed really easy but I totally expect it would feel much easier. That being said I am not ruling out too much extractor tention even though I gauged it as within spec using the tool John suggested


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    My crappy advice that worked for me is to reduce extractor tension. I've also read to see if chambering the round from the mag while putting pressure on the mag from the bottom. If that fixes it, allegedly you need a new part that allows the magazine to sit higher for the round to feed better.


    For the 8 rounder mag I did notice when investigating way more play than the kimber mag. Pushing up on mag with 8 rounds has a positive result with less dent but still a slight dent. It likely would have a positive impact if this mag fit better. kimber mag has very little play

    Here is the 8 round mag pics showing play.
    4c9510cc8e812dcc53d6c636f68e456a.jpg

    2d17b9e3b0303e4096a698c53ecfc3c4.jpg



    John
    Seating deeper seemed to make little difference with the 8 round mag but I may load up 50 for next range day to try if the 3 point jamming starts up on me once the gun gets dirty.
    f3fd5a76f4fdd8434efb2bbaee6fd388.jpg




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    inkd

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 4, 2009
    7,512
    Ridge
    Barrel bump pictures. Disassemble the gun and check for wear in these areas.

    If it isn't completely obvious, clean the barrel leg area really good to get any oil off them. Take a sharpie marker and color the barrel legs. Reassemble, being careful not to scratch the marked areas. Hand cycle the slide a bunch of times. Disassemble and check to see if the sharpie is worn off.

    Don't touch the breech face.
     

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    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Here is the result
    How does this come into play for a failure that occurs long before that link cams over to move the barrel up into the grooves to lock up?

    f2d503b61360772aeaaa1ab01b603134.jpg



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    Bullfrog

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 8, 2009
    15,162
    Carroll County
    Here is the result
    How does this come into play for a failure that occurs long before that link cams over to move the barrel up into the grooves to lock up?

    f2d503b61360772aeaaa1ab01b603134.jpg



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Probably causing the barrel to bump up just a tiny fraction of the distance before it's supposed to, so the edge is no longer flush with the feed ramp and has begun to rise before it should. That would probably cause the dents you're seeing, when the 'corner' where the throating ends bumps the case.

    Also interesting to see the dot pattern on the bottom of the barrel. Digitally encoded serial or lot number?
     

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