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  • K-43

    West of Morning Side
    Oct 20, 2010
    1,881
    PG
    Glad it's working. Melnic seems to be a good egg.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Glad it worked out!
    Last time I shot mine a month or so ago, was shooting the cheap federal auto match just fine.
    And thanks to offering up the Chamber reamer! w/o that, we would never have been able to make it happen.

    This Erma went from, why did I buy this darn thing and can I get rid of it with a clear conscience to I'm never gonna sell this cause of what I figured out with it.
     

    ithacaartist

    Member
    Jun 15, 2020
    7
    Mecklenburg, NY
    I just joined up to get involved with this old thread. I've seen the video on YouTube, but was never able to connect with the OP to find out how it worked, or what reamer was used until just now, in this thread.

    I've been fiddling with Erma toggle pistols for a number of years and have great interest in the improvements in function that running a finishing reamer into their chambers seems to yield. Having given this sleeping thread a nudge, I'm wondering if it's still possible for me to borrow the sporting chamber reamer that's been passed around.

    The Erma toggle pistols in my collection run the full range of calibers and models, and tight .22lr chambers seem universal throughout...same as their crankiness. I've been hearing via my research that refinishing the chamber is the way to go, but this thread seems to have finally answered the question of exactly what spec/style reamer to use. I didn't want to rent or buy one that took off too much material in any particular aspect. I've suspected that the "sporting" format was the one to use, but didn't want to obtain one until I was more certain it would be correct.

    I've followed the thread on Gunboards that's mentioned in the first pages of this one for a number of years, added my info for the OP's database, and contributed various comments, etc. The OP is Holger Schlemier, who at this point has had his Erma history book published in the original German, English version in the works and due out in the near future.

    Just to keep things straight, I can clarify the info here about the different models and their construction, etc. The La-22 and the Ep and Et-22 were made in the 60s. Save for the steel barrel liner, steel breech block, and steel internals, they're made of Zamak castings. The later-made KGP-69 is just the reverse, and they are all steel except for the Zamak grip frame and trigger. They seem to work a bit better than the earlier models, and were the last ones produced before Erma went belly-up. A chemical blackener for zinc alloy was used to create their finish on the cast parts, not paint.

    I will caution that "hyper-velocity" rounds such as the Stinger and Velocitor be avoided at all costs. They're energetic enough to bottom the action out within itself, and you will have a broken front toggle link before you know it if you use them. They were designed to fire rounds in the "high velocity" category. Standard velocity or sub-sonic rounds won't cycle the action properly, as many have pointed out already.

    A number of things can affect the smoothness of the action. When the gun is assembled without recoil or firing pin springs, it should move slick as snot on a doorknob. Sometimes there will be a distortion of the barrel extension which can include bent, bowed, or twisted rails. If you have to pinch the backs of the extension's rails to get it into the grip frame, they need straightening. If this fit is too loose because the rails are too close together at the back, same story. Either of these situations is likely to impede the breech block's motion, as being twisted also would. Cast Zamak is much more brittle than steel, but if forces to straighten what's amiss are applied judiciously, it can be done. Sometimes the castings are imperfect, with perhaps a small, smooth, bubble-like blip that stands proud of the surface of the barrel extension. Dremel these off flush and smooth. They're usually located so that any evidence of this work is hidden when the pistol is assembled.

    I'll differ somewhat in my personal assessment of Erma factory mags. Their construction is robust, and I've never encountered one with a spring weak enough to impede function. Alignment of, and clearance between the front feed lips is quite important, and they should also be tuned to the ammo used. This, because the noses presented by ammo of different manufacturers varies, and will require slightly different tolerances. My experience is that the problem of keeping a round's nose down as it is advanced toward the chamber is much more often a problem than keeping it up.

    I also sell from an almost complete collection of NOS Erma factory parts I acquired, so if anyone needs something, I can probably help. I have some reproduction parts available, too, that fill in for items that are unobtainable at the usual sources, including KGP series extractor bodies and springs, sears for the La-22, and front toggle links for the KGP-68A. You'll find them listed on Gunbroker, or you can PM me with your needs.

    This chamber-reaming trick is something I'm also going to apply to a couple of small frame Llamas in .22lr. They present roughly the same problems with chambering and extracting and ejecting, and I suspect that it's because chambers cut to European standards are slightly tighter than SAAMI standards here.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Welcome to the forum, drop a PM to K43 about the reamer.

    I last shot my LA-22 a week ago the same day I took out my original 1916 dated Luger to the range.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    capt14k

    Active Member
    Jul 27, 2015
    221
    Just won a .380 KGP68A. Placed a bid and forgot about it. Really didn't think I would win with the way prices have been. Are they any good? When were they made? Are they C&R eligible? If so I'm thinking about having it shipped to a PA FFL01 then picking up when my FFL03 comes in which will likely be way before a new NJ Pistol Permit comes in.

    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,174
    Outside the Gates
    Just won a .380 KGP68A. Placed a bid and forgot about it. Really didn't think I would win with the way prices have been. Are they any good? When were they made? Are they C&R eligible? If so I'm thinking about having it shipped to a PA FFL01 then picking up when my FFL03 comes in which will likely be way before a new NJ Pistol Permit comes in.

    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

    They are OK, but nothing special; generally a novelty gun that looks like another gun. I have a .380 and its the lightest recoiling .380 blowback I've ever shot. The firing pin is also the ejector; if you hold the gun perfectly upright, the empty case will eject straight up and come back down and hit the gun or your hand. Not a problem, just anoying

    C&R depends on the year it was made. A very early KGP68A would be C&R

    - KGP68 in .32 and .380, build 1968-69, 7,609 guns

    - KGP68A in .32 and .380, build 1969-89, 22,665 guns, identical to KGP68 except extra magazine safety.
     

    capt14k

    Active Member
    Jul 27, 2015
    221
    Depends on the year it was made. A very early KGP68A would be C&R



    - KGP68 in .32 and .380, build 1968-69, 7,609 guns



    - KGP68A in .32 and .380, build 1969-89, 22,665 guns, identical to KGP68 except extra magazine safety.
    Damn this is an A and I can't make out the serial. Just asked the seller. Thank you for the info.

    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
     

    uc1089

    Member
    Jan 5, 2024
    1
    Oley,Pa.
    I just joined up to get involved with this old thread. I've seen the video on YouTube, but was never able to connect with the OP to find out how it worked, or what reamer was used until just now, in this thread.

    I've been fiddling with Erma toggle pistols for a number of years and have great interest in the improvements in function that running a finishing reamer into their chambers seems to yield. Having given this sleeping thread a nudge, I'm wondering if it's still possible for me to borrow the sporting chamber reamer that's been passed around.

    The Erma toggle pistols in my collection run the full range of calibers and models, and tight .22lr chambers seem universal throughout...same as their crankiness. I've been hearing via my research that refinishing the chamber is the way to go, but this thread seems to have finally answered the question of exactly what spec/style reamer to use. I didn't want to rent or buy one that took off too much material in any particular aspect. I've suspected that the "sporting" format was the one to use, but didn't want to obtain one until I was more certain it would be correct.

    I've followed the thread on Gunboards that's mentioned in the first pages of this one for a number of years, added my info for the OP's database, and contributed various comments, etc. The OP is Holger Schlemier, who at this point has had his Erma history book published in the original German, English version in the works and due out in the near future.

    Just to keep things straight, I can clarify the info here about the different models and their construction, etc. The La-22 and the Ep and Et-22 were made in the 60s. Save for the steel barrel liner, steel breech block, and steel internals, they're made of Zamak castings. The later-made KGP-69 is just the reverse, and they are all steel except for the Zamak grip frame and trigger. They seem to work a bit better than the earlier models, and were the last ones produced before Erma went belly-up. A chemical blackener for zinc alloy was used to create their finish on the cast parts, not paint.

    I will caution that "hyper-velocity" rounds such as the Stinger and Velocitor be avoided at all costs. They're energetic enough to bottom the action out within itself, and you will have a broken front toggle link before you know it if you use them. They were designed to fire rounds in the "high velocity" category. Standard velocity or sub-sonic rounds won't cycle the action properly, as many have pointed out already.

    A number of things can affect the smoothness of the action. When the gun is assembled without recoil or firing pin springs, it should move slick as snot on a doorknob. Sometimes there will be a distortion of the barrel extension which can include bent, bowed, or twisted rails. If you have to pinch the backs of the extension's rails to get it into the grip frame, they need straightening. If this fit is too loose because the rails are too close together at the back, same story. Either of these situations is likely to impede the breech block's motion, as being twisted also would. Cast Zamak is much more brittle than steel, but if forces to straighten what's amiss are applied judiciously, it can be done. Sometimes the castings are imperfect, with perhaps a small, smooth, bubble-like blip that stands proud of the surface of the barrel extension. Dremel these off flush and smooth. They're usually located so that any evidence of this work is hidden when the pistol is assembled.

    I'll differ somewhat in my personal assessment of Erma factory mags. Their construction is robust, and I've never encountered one with a spring weak enough to impede function. Alignment of, and clearance between the front feed lips is quite important, and they should also be tuned to the ammo used. This, because the noses presented by ammo of different manufacturers varies, and will require slightly different tolerances. My experience is that the problem of keeping a round's nose down as it is advanced toward the chamber is much more often a problem than keeping it up.

    I also sell from an almost complete collection of NOS Erma factory parts I acquired, so if anyone needs something, I can probably help. I have some reproduction parts available, too, that fill in for items that are unobtainable at the usual sources, including KGP series extractor bodies and springs, sears for the La-22, and front toggle links for the KGP-68A. You'll find them listed on Gunbroker, or you can PM me with your needs.

    This chamber-reaming trick is something I'm also going to apply to a couple of small frame Llamas in .22lr. They present roughly the same problems with chambering and extracting and ejecting, and I suspect that it's because chambers cut to European standards are slightly tighter than SAAMI standards here.
    Hi I am in need of a sear (round type ) for an Erma La22 , do you have one to sell or do you know where I can get one, please advise . Thanks, Bob Bosch rmb112@comcast.net
     
    Jul 1, 2012
    5,712
    Numrich (gunparts.com) is out of stock but has a schematic at least.
    This might be tough to find, or may even have to buy a parts kit to get it.
    Keep an eye on evilPay and Gunpoker.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,167
    Numrich (gunparts.com) is out of stock but has a schematic at least.
    This might be tough to find, or may even have to buy a parts kit to get it.
    Keep an eye on evilPay and Gunpoker.
    Based on the picture of the part it doesn't look like it would be to hard to make. Try talking to a gunsmith or machinist.

    Picture
     

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