SBR Usefulness

Irish64 · Jun 13, 2020

DutchV said:
The SBA3 brace can be improved a bit by using a Splitfix.

http://lcequipped.com/sba3-splitfix/

fbi_surveillance_van said:
The splitfix is indeed really good for those of us cursed with large forearms.

I take it then, that this isn't considered a modification of the brace?

outrider58 · Jun 13, 2020

calicojack said:
I agree. What sucks in MD is the 29" OAL. So I can't SBR by AR9 unless I am able to find an 11 or 12" barrel which is uncommon for 9mm

Ballistic advantage

https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/11-inch-9mm-modern-barrel.html

Or you.can go this route...

https://www.vltor.com/shop/ar/receiver-extensions/re-a5-a5-receiver-extension/

calicojack · Jun 13, 2020

outrider58 said:
Ballistic advantage

https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/11-inch-9mm-modern-barrel.html

Or you.can go this route...

https://www.vltor.com/shop/ar/receiver-extensions/re-a5-a5-receiver-extension/

Hmm. I thank you (but my wallet hates you).

teratos · Jun 13, 2020

calicojack said:
Hmm. I thank you (but my wallet hates you).

My wallet hates Outrider, too.

woodline · Jun 13, 2020

Irish64 said:
I take it then, that this isn't considered a modification of the brace?

I am not a lawyer but I don't see how adding a bigger strap + Velcro retaining loop to accommodate larger forearms could be misconstrued as an attempt to modify the brace with the intent to make it a stock.

But that's my personal opinion and that does not count for much in a court of law.

outrider58 · Jun 13, 2020

fbi_surveillance_van said:
I am not a lawyer but I don't see how adding a bigger strap + Velcro retaining loop to accommodate larger forearms could be misconstrued as an attempt to modify the brace with the intent to make it a stock.

But that's my personal opinion and that does not count for much in a court of law.

You're correct. I don't even see it as an "improvement" per se. Pistols are allowed to have slings(pardon my ingrish).

rayrevolver · Jun 14, 2020

outrider58 said:
Ballistic advantage

https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/11-inch-9mm-modern-barrel.html

Or you.can go this route...

https://www.vltor.com/shop/ar/receiver-extensions/re-a5-a5-receiver-extension/

We did a big thread on 29" a few years ago.

From what I remember:
A 9" barrel + Vltor A5 RE + Magpul ACS-L stock = 29.1"

The Magpul ACS stock is longer than most other Magpul stocks AND you could add a thicker buttpad.

3paul10 · Jun 14, 2020

teratos said:
My wallet hates Outrider, too.

Well, the clown does stir shit up. Google it.

DaemonAssassin · Jun 14, 2020

lazarus said:
The problem there is it really just has to be suppressed. A 7.5” .223 is going to blast out your hearing by the time a mag is done and in a hallway probably after just a shot or two. And disorienting were heck in the dark.

IMHO 10.5” is really the minimum other than a fun gun, or suppressed.

IMHO even a 7.5” .300BO sucks really bad unless you custom load ammo and use some pistol powder or something.

You do know that 300BLK uses slow burning (for pistol) pistol powders, right? Furthermore, the same powders that 300BLK uses, when used in other centerfire rifles is very fast burning...

For reference use. Look for w296, H110, and Lil' Gun, then see where they fall.

https://www.grafs.com/uploads/techn...SY-vaCYcTAOf0g9FZxQcf3UvWUis-62mqwntNrhOGWxM4

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/burn-rate-color.pdf

I am including load data for 300BLK as a reference point for the powders most commonly used in 300BLK, because they produce the highest velocities with the least amount of powder in the case to achieve the velocities.

300BLK load data from 110gr - 230gr.

Case: Hornady
Twist: 1:8"
Primer: Remington 7 1/2, Small Rifle Magnum
Barrel Length: 16"
Trim Length: 1.363"
Bullet Weight110 GR. HDY V-MAX
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.050"
18.4
2,191
38,900 PSI
19.4
2,286
48,400 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.050"
18.4
2,191
38,900 PSI
19.4
2,286
48,400 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.050"
19.9
2,368
39,700 PSI
21.0C
2,474
46,400 PSI
Bullet Weight115 GR. BER TGT FB
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.050"
18.3
2,134
34,100 PSI
20.3
2,336
52,700 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.050"
18.3
2,134
34,100 PSI
20.3
2,336
52,700 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.050"
20.2
2,362
41,000 PSI
22.5C
2,486
44,900 PSI
Bullet Weight125 GR. NOS BT
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.060"
15.7
1,921
32,400 PSI
18.5C
2,205
52,500 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.060"
15.7
1,921
32,400 PSI
18.5C
2,205
52,500 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.060"
17.8
2,210
42,700 PSI
21.0C
2,402
48,800 PSI
Bullet Weight130 GR. SPR HP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.005"
17.1
1,942
37,900 PSI
18.6
2,083
51,700 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.005"
17.1
1,942
37,900 PSI
18.6
2,083
51,700 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.005"
17.0
2,090
41,700 PSI
18.5
2,192
51,200 PSI
Bullet Weight135 GR. SIE VAR HP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.055"
16.9
1,881
38,500 PSI
18.8C
2,077
50,800 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.055"
16.9
1,881
38,500 PSI
18.8C
2,077
50,800 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.055"
17.3
2,069
42,000 PSI
19.3
2,178
50,700 PSI
Bullet Weight140 GR. NOS HPBT
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.055"
15.1
1,793
31,500 PSI
17.8
2,047
52,700 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.055"
15.1
1,793
31,500 PSI
17.8
2,047
52,700 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.055"
15.1
1,922
36,000 PSI
17.8
2,139
52,800 PSI
Bullet Weight150 GR. HDY IB
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.235"
14.6
1,725
34,400 PSI
17.2
1,971
52,800 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.235"
14.6
1,725
34,400 PSI
17.2
1,971
52,800 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.235"
14.6
1,855
39,000 PSI
17.2
2,062
52,800 PSI
Bullet Weight168 GR. HDY BTHP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.230"
14.5
1,679
40,600 PSI
16.0
1,817
53,300 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.230"
14.5
1,679
40,600 PSI
16.0
1,817
53,300 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.230"
13.9
1,735
41,400 PSI
15.3
1,866
52,900 PSI
Bullet Weight175 GR. SIE HPBT
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.215"
14.5
1,652
40,600 PSI
16.0
1,785
52,600 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.215"
14.5
1,652
40,600 PSI
16.0
1,785
52,600 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.215"
14.1
1,730
42,500 PSI
15.4
1,834
52,800 PSI
Bullet Weight180 GR. SPR SP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.210"
14.1
1,624
44,500 PSI
15.6
1,736
53,700 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.210"
14.1
1,624
44,500 PSI
15.6
1,736
53,700 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.210"
13.4
1,680
45,100 PSI
14.8
1,786
52,900 PSI
Bullet Weight208 GR. HDY A-MAX
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.260"
9.2
1,060
22,700 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.260"
9.2
1,060
22,700 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.260"
8.2
1,050
22,200 PSI
Bullet Weight220 GR. SIE HPBT
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.260"
9.2
1,046
28,100 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.260"
9.2
1,046
28,100 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.260"
8.4
1,062
26,500 PSI
Bullet Weight230 GR. BER TACT
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.260"
9.0
1,058
32,900 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.260"
9.0
1,058
32,900 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.260"
8.2
1,068
30,000 PSI

And the load data for .17 Hornet with W296, H110, and Lil' Gun powders. Look at the projectile weight, powder charges, and velocities.

Case: Hornady
Twist: 1:9"
Primer: Federal 205M, Small Rifle Match
Barrel Length: 24"
Trim Length: 1.340"
Bullet Weight15.5 GR. HDY NTX
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Hodgdon
H110
.172"
1.715"
9.1
3,613
42,500 PSI
9.9
3,797
47,800 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.172"
1.715"
9.1
3,687
40,900 PSI
9.8
3,715
47,700 PSI
Bullet Weight20 GR. HDY V-MAX
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.172"
1.715"
8.0
3,173
40,900 PSI
8.7
3,301
45,100 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.172"
1.715"
8.0
3,173
40,900 PSI
8.7
3,301
45,100 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.172"
1.715"
9.7
3,538
44,600 PSI
10.0
3,629
48,200 PSI
Bullet Weight25 GR. HDY V-MAX
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.172"
1.715"
8.6
3,125
45,000 PSI
8.9
3,195
48,000 PSI

Here is 357 Mag with just Lil' Gun

ase: Winchester
Twist: 1:18.75"
Primer: Winchester SPM, Small Pistol Magnum
Barrel Length: 10"
Trim Length: 1.285"
Bullet Weight158 GR. HDY XTP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.357"
1.580"
16.0
1,504
24,100 CUP
18.0
1,577
25,800 CUP
Bullet Weight170 GR. SIE JHC
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.357"
1.580"
15.0
1,422
25,100 CUP
17.0
1,576
35,500 CUP
Bullet Weight180 GR. NOS PART
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.357"
1.575"
13.0
1,279
27,500 CUP
15.0
1,422
34,500 CUP

Here is load data for the 44 mag with W296, H110, and Lil' Gun.

Case: Winchester
Twist: 1:20"
Primer: Remington 2 1/2, Large Pistol
Barrel Length: 8.275"
Trim Length: 1.280"
Bullet Weight180 GR. HDY XTP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.430"
1.600"
29.0
1,714
21,800 CUP
31.5
1,896
29,900 CUP
Hodgdon
H110
.430"
1.600"
29.0
1,714
21,800 CUP
31.5
1,896
29,900 CUP
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.430"
1.600"
29.0
1,749
27,400 CUP
31.5
1,859
32,300 CUP
Bullet Weight200 GR. NOS JHP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.429"
1.600"
27.5
1,708
29,000 CUP
28.5
1,806
37,800 CUP
Hodgdon
H110
.429"
1.600"
27.5
1,708
29,000 CUP
28.5
1,806
37,800 CUP
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.429"
1.600"
27.5
1,667
27,500 CUP
29.5
1,794
36,200 CUP
Bullet Weight210 GR. SIE JHC
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.430"
1.600"
26.0
1,615
29,900 CUP
27.0
1,665
31,100 CUP
Hodgdon
H110
.430"
1.600"
26.0
1,615
29,900 CUP
27.0
1,665
31,100 CUP
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.430"
1.600"
26.0
1,660
35,500 CUP
27.7
1,749
37,900 CUP
Bullet Weight225 GR. HDY FTX
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.430"
1.665"
19.4
1,338
26,700 PSI
21.5
1,482
33,400 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.430"
1.665"
19.4
1,338
26,700 PSI
21.5
1,482
33,400 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.430"
1.665"
18.6
1,358
26,600 PSI
20.7
1,530
34,300 PSI
Bullet Weight225 GR. SPR JHP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.429"
1.575"
23.0
1,468
25,600 CUP
25.0
1,617
36,300 CUP
Hodgdon
H110
.429"
1.575"
23.0
1,468
25,600 CUP
25.0
1,617
36,300 CUP
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.429"
1.575"
22.5
1,508
31,600 CUP
24.7
1,623
37,700 CUP
Bullet Weight240 GR. NOS JHP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.429"
1.600"
23.0
1,413
25,200 CUP
24.0
1,522
36,200 CUP
Hodgdon
H110
.429"
1.600"
23.0
1,413
25,200 CUP
24.0
1,522
36,200 CUP
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.429"
1.600"
22.5
1,465
30,100 CUP
24.5
1,582
38,100 CUP

Your assumptions are very much flawed from the load data, my man.

teratos · Jun 14, 2020

DaemonAssassin said:
You do know that 300BLK uses slow burning (for pistol) pistol powders, right? Furthermore, the same powders that 300BLK uses, when used in other centerfire rifles is very fast burning...

For reference use. Look for w296, H110, and Lil' Gun, then see where they fall.

https://www.grafs.com/uploads/techn...SY-vaCYcTAOf0g9FZxQcf3UvWUis-62mqwntNrhOGWxM4

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/burn-rate-color.pdf

I am including load data for 300BLK as a reference point for the powders most commonly used in 300BLK, because they produce the highest velocities with the least amount of powder in the case to achieve the velocities.

Case: Hornady
Twist: 1:8"
Primer: Remington 7 1/2, Small Rifle Magnum
Barrel Length: 16"
Trim Length: 1.363"
Bullet Weight110 GR. HDY V-MAX
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.050"
18.4
2,191
38,900 PSI
19.4
2,286
48,400 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.050"
18.4
2,191
38,900 PSI
19.4
2,286
48,400 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.050"
19.9
2,368
39,700 PSI
21.0C
2,474
46,400 PSI
Bullet Weight115 GR. BER TGT FB
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.050"
18.3
2,134
34,100 PSI
20.3
2,336
52,700 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.050"
18.3
2,134
34,100 PSI
20.3
2,336
52,700 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.050"
20.2
2,362
41,000 PSI
22.5C
2,486
44,900 PSI
Bullet Weight125 GR. NOS BT
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.060"
15.7
1,921
32,400 PSI
18.5C
2,205
52,500 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.060"
15.7
1,921
32,400 PSI
18.5C
2,205
52,500 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.060"
17.8
2,210
42,700 PSI
21.0C
2,402
48,800 PSI
Bullet Weight130 GR. SPR HP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.005"
17.1
1,942
37,900 PSI
18.6
2,083
51,700 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.005"
17.1
1,942
37,900 PSI
18.6
2,083
51,700 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.005"
17.0
2,090
41,700 PSI
18.5
2,192
51,200 PSI
Bullet Weight135 GR. SIE VAR HP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.055"
16.9
1,881
38,500 PSI
18.8C
2,077
50,800 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.055"
16.9
1,881
38,500 PSI
18.8C
2,077
50,800 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.055"
17.3
2,069
42,000 PSI
19.3
2,178
50,700 PSI
Bullet Weight140 GR. NOS HPBT
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.055"
15.1
1,793
31,500 PSI
17.8
2,047
52,700 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.055"
15.1
1,793
31,500 PSI
17.8
2,047
52,700 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.055"
15.1
1,922
36,000 PSI
17.8
2,139
52,800 PSI
Bullet Weight150 GR. HDY IB
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.235"
14.6
1,725
34,400 PSI
17.2
1,971
52,800 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.235"
14.6
1,725
34,400 PSI
17.2
1,971
52,800 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.235"
14.6
1,855
39,000 PSI
17.2
2,062
52,800 PSI
Bullet Weight168 GR. HDY BTHP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.230"
14.5
1,679
40,600 PSI
16.0
1,817
53,300 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.230"
14.5
1,679
40,600 PSI
16.0
1,817
53,300 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.230"
13.9
1,735
41,400 PSI
15.3
1,866
52,900 PSI
Bullet Weight175 GR. SIE HPBT
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.215"
14.5
1,652
40,600 PSI
16.0
1,785
52,600 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.215"
14.5
1,652
40,600 PSI
16.0
1,785
52,600 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.215"
14.1
1,730
42,500 PSI
15.4
1,834
52,800 PSI
Bullet Weight180 GR. SPR SP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.210"
14.1
1,624
44,500 PSI
15.6
1,736
53,700 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.210"
14.1
1,624
44,500 PSI
15.6
1,736
53,700 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.210"
13.4
1,680
45,100 PSI
14.8
1,786
52,900 PSI
Bullet Weight208 GR. HDY A-MAX
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.260"
9.2
1,060
22,700 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.260"
9.2
1,060
22,700 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.260"
8.2
1,050
22,200 PSI
Bullet Weight220 GR. SIE HPBT
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.260"
9.2
1,046
28,100 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.260"
9.2
1,046
28,100 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.260"
8.4
1,062
26,500 PSI
Bullet Weight230 GR. BER TACT
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.308"
2.260"
9.0
1,058
32,900 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.308"
2.260"
9.0
1,058
32,900 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.308"
2.260"
8.2
1,068
30,000 PSI

And the load data for .17 Hornet with W296, H110, and Lil' Gun powders. Look at the projectile weight, powder charges, and velocities.

Case: Hornady
Twist: 1:9"
Primer: Federal 205M, Small Rifle Match
Barrel Length: 24"
Trim Length: 1.340"
Bullet Weight15.5 GR. HDY NTX
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Hodgdon
H110
.172"
1.715"
9.1
3,613
42,500 PSI
9.9
3,797
47,800 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.172"
1.715"
9.1
3,687
40,900 PSI
9.8
3,715
47,700 PSI
Bullet Weight20 GR. HDY V-MAX
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.172"
1.715"
8.0
3,173
40,900 PSI
8.7
3,301
45,100 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.172"
1.715"
8.0
3,173
40,900 PSI
8.7
3,301
45,100 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.172"
1.715"
9.7
3,538
44,600 PSI
10.0
3,629
48,200 PSI
Bullet Weight25 GR. HDY V-MAX
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.172"
1.715"
8.6
3,125
45,000 PSI
8.9
3,195
48,000 PSI

Here is 357 Mag with just Lil' Gun

ase: Winchester
Twist: 1:18.75"
Primer: Winchester SPM, Small Pistol Magnum
Barrel Length: 10"
Trim Length: 1.285"
Bullet Weight158 GR. HDY XTP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.357"
1.580"
16.0
1,504
24,100 CUP
18.0
1,577
25,800 CUP
Bullet Weight170 GR. SIE JHC
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.357"
1.580"
15.0
1,422
25,100 CUP
17.0
1,576
35,500 CUP
Bullet Weight180 GR. NOS PART
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.357"
1.575"
13.0
1,279
27,500 CUP
15.0
1,422
34,500 CUP

Here is load data for the 44 mag with W296, H110, and Lil' Gun.

Case: Winchester
Twist: 1:20"
Primer: Remington 2 1/2, Large Pistol
Barrel Length: 8.275"
Trim Length: 1.280"
Bullet Weight180 GR. HDY XTP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.430"
1.600"
29.0
1,714
21,800 CUP
31.5
1,896
29,900 CUP
Hodgdon
H110
.430"
1.600"
29.0
1,714
21,800 CUP
31.5
1,896
29,900 CUP
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.430"
1.600"
29.0
1,749
27,400 CUP
31.5
1,859
32,300 CUP
Bullet Weight200 GR. NOS JHP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.429"
1.600"
27.5
1,708
29,000 CUP
28.5
1,806
37,800 CUP
Hodgdon
H110
.429"
1.600"
27.5
1,708
29,000 CUP
28.5
1,806
37,800 CUP
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.429"
1.600"
27.5
1,667
27,500 CUP
29.5
1,794
36,200 CUP
Bullet Weight210 GR. SIE JHC
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.430"
1.600"
26.0
1,615
29,900 CUP
27.0
1,665
31,100 CUP
Hodgdon
H110
.430"
1.600"
26.0
1,615
29,900 CUP
27.0
1,665
31,100 CUP
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.430"
1.600"
26.0
1,660
35,500 CUP
27.7
1,749
37,900 CUP
Bullet Weight225 GR. HDY FTX
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.430"
1.665"
19.4
1,338
26,700 PSI
21.5
1,482
33,400 PSI
Hodgdon
H110
.430"
1.665"
19.4
1,338
26,700 PSI
21.5
1,482
33,400 PSI
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.430"
1.665"
18.6
1,358
26,600 PSI
20.7
1,530
34,300 PSI
Bullet Weight225 GR. SPR JHP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.429"
1.575"
23.0
1,468
25,600 CUP
25.0
1,617
36,300 CUP
Hodgdon
H110
.429"
1.575"
23.0
1,468
25,600 CUP
25.0
1,617
36,300 CUP
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.429"
1.575"
22.5
1,508
31,600 CUP
24.7
1,623
37,700 CUP
Bullet Weight240 GR. NOS JHP
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)
Pressure
Winchester
296
.429"
1.600"
23.0
1,413
25,200 CUP
24.0
1,522
36,200 CUP
Hodgdon
H110
.429"
1.600"
23.0
1,413
25,200 CUP
24.0
1,522
36,200 CUP
Hodgdon
Lil'Gun
.429"
1.600"
22.5
1,465
30,100 CUP
24.5
1,582
38,100 CUP

Your assumptions are very much flawed from the load data, my man.

Hands down the LONGEST MDS post ever.

DaemonAssassin · Jun 14, 2020

outrider58 said:
Ballistic advantage

https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/11-inch-9mm-modern-barrel.html

Or you.can go this route...

https://www.vltor.com/shop/ar/receiver-extensions/re-a5-a5-receiver-extension/

Faxon makes a 11" 9mm barrel.

DaemonAssassin · Jun 14, 2020

teratos said:
Hands down the LONGEST MDS post ever.

I set another record, yay!

Well, it was better to put the info out there in the post than be told I was wrong, because I didn't provide a cite, source or data.

IMBLITZVT · Jun 16, 2020

teratos said:
Hands down the LONGEST MDS post ever.

Followed by the longest reply to a post ever!

I think SBRs are generally not worth it! They cost way to much and you should just save the money and upgrade to a MG. For the cost of like 3 nice SBRs, you could be into a MG. Why waste the money on a SBR that will do things pretty much the same as a standard semi auto but will cost 3x as much. Make it a bit longer and save the money. Or better, skip it and save for a MG! SBRs are a money hole that you will likely never get your money back out of. I have a SBR and sold it and I lucked out and make money on the deal.

I had a VZ61 Skorpion pistol. It looked cool but was horrible to shoot. Unless its Full auto, there is no point in the pistol or SBR.

As far as everyone going on about the arm bracing being banned... hell everything might get banned soon. Don't worry about that, I would go that way over the SBR any day.

jstolz · Jun 16, 2020

IMBLITZVT said:
Followed by the longest reply to a post ever!

I think SBRs are generally not worth it! They cost way to much and you should just save the money and upgrade to a MG. For the cost of like 3 nice SBRs, you could be into a MG. Why waste the money on a SBR that will do things pretty much the same as a standard semi auto but will cost 3x as much. Make it a bit longer and save the money. Or better, skip it and save for a MG! SBRs are a money hole that you will likely never get your money back out of. I have a SBR and sold it and I lucked out and make money on the deal.

I had a VZ61 Skorpion pistol. It looked cool but was horrible to shoot. Unless its Full auto, there is no point in the pistol or SBR.

As far as everyone going on about the arm bracing being banned... hell everything might get banned soon. Don't worry about that, I would go that way over the SBR any day.

I want a MG so bad. I just have never seen one in a shop under 10k

erwos · Jun 16, 2020

SBRs cost $200 more than a comparable non-NFA weapon. The pricing difference is really quite minimal, even over multiple guns, once you figure in total build costs.

Also, not sure I agree with the math. These days, for the cost of 3 nice SBRs, you can get a really bad MG. MG prices have gone up. An 11.5" SOLGW SBR is gonna be much more useful at a class, or a match, or whatever, than a Chauchat. M11/9s, which used to be the starting point, are up to something like $8000-$9000 now.

Finally, the measure of usefulness of a gun isn't what you can resell it for. Reselling pistols in MD is actually a somewhat tricky, annoying process, given that they need to be on the roster. And most home builds will lose a lot of money, too.

woodline · Jun 16, 2020

IMBLITZVT said:
Followed by the longest reply to a post ever!

I think SBRs are generally not worth it! They cost way to much and you should just save the money and upgrade to a MG. For the cost of like 3 nice SBRs, you could be into a MG. Why waste the money on a SBR that will do things pretty much the same as a standard semi auto but will cost 3x as much. Make it a bit longer and save the money. Or better, skip it and save for a MG! SBRs are a money hole that you will likely never get your money back out of. I have a SBR and sold it and I lucked out and make money on the deal.

I had a VZ61 Skorpion pistol. It looked cool but was horrible to shoot. Unless its Full auto, there is no point in the pistol or SBR.

As far as everyone going on about the arm bracing being banned... hell everything might get banned soon. Don't worry about that, I would go that way over the SBR any day.

In terms of return on investment, a machine gun is absolutely a better one. Silencers and SBRs are not going to hold their value. In fact, they will lose quite a lot of it. In terms of cost, I think you are overestimating that of an SBR by quite a lot. In terms of utility, outside of a belt fed serving as a long range area denial tool, most machine guns that are form 4 transferrable don't serve a unique purpose (as in one in which a semi auto can't substitute effectively for a select fire) and aren't all that useful for training classes or competition. In terms of fun, machine guns certainly are that. Assuming you can afford to feed it, and aren't afraid of breaking your investment.

Personally I'd rather invest in night vision equipment than a machine gun to gain new capabilities, but that would be a poor financial investment. As to the SBR vs pistol argument, why not both?

outrider58 · Jun 16, 2020

Yeah right; SBR(a good one) $3000 with can and two stamps. M4 select fire-full automatic(I'm guessing) between $25K-$35K. :cool:

Wayne1one · Jun 16, 2020

teratos said:
I f’ing hate arm braces. So much nicer with a real stock.

My feelings on the topic. Additionally, I don't find braces to be as sturdy as stocks, the rubber portions are too soft and not rigid enough for me. Lastly, I like my firearms as close to what the original manufacturer intended.

Wayne1one · Jun 16, 2020

calicojack said:
I agree. What sucks in MD is the 29" OAL. So I can't SBR by AR9 unless I am able to find an 11 or 12" barrel which is uncommon for 9mm

8.5" barrel here, 29" overall. Just gotta be creative....

IMG_0670 by 556 Channel (HD), on Flickr

teratos · Jun 16, 2020

Wayne1one said:
My feelings on the topic. Additionally, I don't find braces to be as sturdy as stocks, the rubber portions are too soft and not rigid enough for me. Lastly, I like my firearms as close to what the original manufacturer intended.

It's funny that people will spend $200+ on a brace, and bitch about spending $200 on the stamp when they could just put a $30 stock on a SBR.

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