Coly OP shaving lead

lazarus · Jun 25, 2020

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:
You can send the revolver to Frank Glenn in Phoenix, AZ. He's a master Colt gunsmith and get put that piece operating like new. He's very reasonable with his rates and has quick turnaround.

It might be where I end up. I’d love this thing working great. It was refinished at some point. So someone might have monkeyed with it. Or it might just be worn from over 90 years. I think I am understanding the adjustment, check and timing operations reading through the book.

It sounds like I need to check rebound and bolt head. A low former or high later might be causing the drag cocking ever hammer. I think rebound/bolt timing is correct reading what he says. Instant response on trigger movement (DA), very slight hesitancy in bolt movement in when the hammer is cocked (SA). That’s appears to check out. I need to double check bolt height, but I think it was spot on the .080” Protrusion figure it’s supposed to be. Since it isn’t every cylinder I am thinking I need to restone a couple of the ratchet lugs. They are not mirror finish for any of them. All are marred at least slightly.

That doesn’t fix the timing being off on the cylinder not rotating quite far enough, but I am guessing I’ll get to that part soon enough...

:-)

lazarus · Jun 26, 2020

Damn I stayed up wayyyyy too late (can you tell by the time stamp). Sadly I tend to dig in to an issue and not let go. One thing turned in to another and it’s better, but not perfect.

So the rebound was off slightly. I’d guess .005” or so below the bolt lever. I bent it slightly, but probably still .002-.003” low. But that seemed to cure the hesitation in SA.

Old Hand was definitely wayyyy to short. Peened it for an hour alternating a flat head I filed shorter (wider contact surface) and sanded smooth a round punch that’s smooth with a 6oz ball peen hammer on my 20lb anvil. Definitely stretched some. I think about .004”-.006” or so. Hard to get an exact measurement on it. Still not perfect, but 3 of the 6 cylinders the bolt drops in slowly cocking the hammer back. All 6 do it perfectly if you cock it pretty normally. Lockup seems good (maybe better? Dunno on that one).

The new hand I bought was boogered. Certainly longer than the one in my OP. About .008” longer overall. But the lower hand is .020” shorter! The angle is also off on the lower hand. Looks like someone took a factory new hand and overworked it trying to fit it. So time to get a refund or replacement. Hoping refund and just order one from Numerich.

Hopefully this also takes care of the shaving lead (and I didn’t make that worse! Though since the timing seems better I don’t know how I could have made it worse).

I still aim to try to fit a repro/NOS hand to the gun as I think I can get timing perfect then.

And F it, I might get a rebound lever while I am at it so I can try to fit a new one in to the gun better too.

lazarus · Jun 26, 2020

More checking this morning after about 3 pots of coffee and some regret on staying up so late.

Timing much better. Still not perfect in SA. But noticeably better. Inserting spent nickel cases in to the chambers and rotating they aren't all exactly the same lockup timing/spacing. Really close, but 4 of the chambers looking down the barrel I can just see the right edge of the case. 2 seem to have basically perfect alignment. So maybe its out .010"? I mean, its not a 24" barrel, so I assume I can see just a tiny bit more diameter than the bore diameter of the chambers, so maybe its less than a .010" misalignment on those chambers.

This is with trigger pulled to ensure tight lockup. And it is tight. Zero play in the cylinder with the trigger pulled fully back.

Not sure I need to adjust cylinder alignment. Not really seeing anything in the book on how to check it for sure or how to ensure alignment. I do see the troubleshooting on shaving lead, but its not terribly instructive on exactly what might be wrong with the things to check to then adjust or replace.

Since it wasn't tons and tons of shavings (IE most chambers), I am still thinking what was going on is in SA if the cylinder wasn't locked up prior to pulling the trigger, pulling the trigger past the sear break caused the hand to push against the pall rotating the cylinder the last bit and dropping/locking the bolt, but it wasn't locked up tight yet because of the excessive slop in the timing, allowing the bullet to exit the cylinder and skirt the forcing cone. I guess I'll see next time I get to the range (which is likely weeks from now).

Still going to try to get a new hand and fit that as I am nervous to stretch the existing one more (though I think it still can be stretched a bit more). I'd really like to get it in to perfect timing in SA.

lazarus · Jun 26, 2020

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:
You can send the revolver to Frank Glenn in Phoenix, AZ. He's a master Colt gunsmith and get put that piece operating like new. He's very reasonable with his rates and has quick turnaround.

Wow his rates do look pretty great. If it wasn't a pandemic I would have skipped trying to do more work (he'll likely be appalled when he gets it opened. But I feel like all smiths are when they see non-smith work).

Its improved now. But I ordered a repro hand and a factory rebound lever from Numerich. I am still reasonably confident I can get this working. But I am not willing to bend or peen any parts further without proper replacements on hand for fear of breaking them.

At worst I am just out another ~$70 to learn some more and have some fun and I send him the revolver in a few months to get it done PROPERLY (supposing I can't get it right).

One upside is reading over Khunhausen's book and doing all this work I've got a real appreciation for how Colt's work. And I think I've got a pretty good idea how to check one over to see the basics of what might be wrong (or at least easily spot a problem and some of the likely causes).

The downside is I've got a real appreciation for how Colt's work and a pretty good idea how to check one over.

So I am sure that's going to lead to me having acquisitions I hadn't really intended. Like maybe a nice Colt Detective...Python is wayyy too rich for my blood (new or used).

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Jun 26, 2020

There's a reason why many gunsmiths started out trained as watchmakers...fine motor skills plus an innate sense of things mechanical. If you don't have the understanding or skills it's best left to the pros. I'm not knocking what you're doing...just a general statement about gunsmithing. I've worked on Colt revolvers before...with mixed success...I usually got what I wanted done but sometimes I think it was more than by accident than design.

I've been through S&W armorers school and there's a difference between working on the two designs. Colt's old design revolvers require far more precise fitting than the average S&W...and while the Colt action is theoretically more accurate...real world results aren't often any better or worse. In the end it still comes down to the shooter's skills.

K-43 · Jun 27, 2020

I'd "Like!" Mexican Bob's post if I could, despite its being Mexican Bob's post.

Smiths stand up to neglect and abuse better IMHO.
Ratchets are a point here. Mannix style slapping the cylinder closed is a no-no on Colts often ignored. Yet a Triplelock won't care.

John from MD · Jun 27, 2020

There is a distinct difference between Armorers and Gunsmiths. The availability of parts and factory armorer schools and the advent of modular designs, have made it easy for gun owners to work on their guns of that type. When it comes to fitting Colt revolver parts, replacing trunnions on 20K shotguns or making a new stock for a favorite African rifle, you need a Gunsmith. Even fitting an ejector on a Remington 870 or 1100, and making it look good, takes special skills.

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Jun 28, 2020

At the end of Armorer's School at S&W, the instructor stressed to us...and I do mean stressed...that completing the course did not give us the right to hang out a sign saying we're gunsmiths. By no means were we gunsmiths...only that we were given the knowledge to do basic, non-factory level of repairs on S&W revolvers.

lazarus · Jun 29, 2020

I certainly hear you guys. This might end up being a job for a real (Colt) gunsmith in the end. At least so far in life I’ve rarely run in to mechanical things that have stumped me or left me needing to send it to an expert to do. From soldering microelectronics, to rebuilding engines or transmissions, home constructions, etc. I’ll be the first to admit I am not remotely a gun smith. But if I’ve got a good manual, I’ve never had anything stump me in my life.

In this case it’s as much will I have access to parts and tools proper enough to do the job. Since I think it’s just a new hand and then shape it to fit along with bending the rebound bar just maybe a hundredth more and I am good (possibly slightly shaving a few ejector lugs to get them all evened up). Now if it’s also fitting a new bolt...at that point I might just give up as it requires emptying the whole damn revolver effectively and a ton more fitting work.

Biggfoot44 · Jul 4, 2020

There are distinct differences between Gunsmiths, Armorers, and Parts Changers . ( Not an inherent slam on parts changers . They fill a significant need .)

Coly OP shaving lead

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