Protect our 1A Rights! Sue the Tech Giants!

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  • calicojack

    American Sporting Rifle
    MDS Supporter
    May 29, 2018
    5,348
    Cuba on the Chesapeake
    One way our 2A rights are eroded is through the elimination of our 1A rights. Can we sue the tech giants (Google, Twitter, Facebook, etc.) the way the antis sue our Firearms manufacturers? Anti-Trust laws maybe??
     

    [Kev308]

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 23, 2020
    3,800
    Maryland
    There's a good chance Amazon can be sued because its headquaters are in Seattle where they have civil rights laws that state people cannot be discriminated against based on political beliefs. An argument can be made for Parler, but I think they are also banning some books.
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,239
    Montgomery County
    One way our 2A rights are eroded is through the elimination of our 1A rights. Can we sue the tech giants (Google, Twitter, Facebook, etc.) the way the antis sue our Firearms manufacturers? Anti-Trust laws maybe??

    Very delicate territory. Because it's that same 1A that allows a private company to set up a web site and say what they will, or provide (or deny) access to those who they will. If you're OK with Norton having the ban hammer, then you have to be OK with Facebook having one, too.

    The 1A was never meant to control editorial policies held by private people or organizations. It's meant to curtail the GOVERNMENT'S ability to squelch speech and assembly.

    The solution to this problem is the marketplace of ideas, and the marketplace for services meant to express and convey them. We (the constitutionalist, conservative types) dropped the ball for years, and allowed leftists to all but take over the entirety of the communications industry, and allowed nearly all of the R&D and hatching-out of dot-com style businesses to happen in Silicon Valley. The local culture shaped the big tech companies that grew up there.

    It's going to take venture capital from the other side of the spectrum (and now, against a hard wind blowing from the left) to establish some balance in media, entertainment, communication, finance, education, and governance. There are some signs of that starting to coalesce, but we have literally decades of barely giving a damn about any of that to make up for. It's precarious, to say the least. But there are some signs of hope. The left's frantic thrashing around with their Cancel Culture bludgeon shows that they know their corner on those generationally defined markets is starting to weaken.
     

    ToolAA

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 17, 2016
    10,500
    God's Country
    The solution to this problem is the marketplace of ideas, and the marketplace for services meant to express and convey them. We (the constitutionalist, conservative types) dropped the ball for years, and allowed leftists to all but take over the entirety of the communications industry, and allowed nearly all of the R&D and hatching-out of dot-com style businesses to happen in Silicon Valley. The local culture shaped the big tech companies that grew up there.

    It’s a tough pill to swallow, but the answer is indeed the marketplace of ideas.

    I do think that organizations like Google, Apple, Facebook, Amazon and Netflix were all inspired in part by a desire to re-think and overturn the decades of bureaucratic corporate stagnation that was crippling the US economy. I’m thankful that our nation. There was an element of “Stick it to the Man” philosophy that permeated the cultures of those businesses at their inception. It’s that very freedom to think outside the box that lead to their initial success. In each case the markets they were attacking were for all intents monopolized by massive corporations which wielded lots of political power and by extension power over the average american joe. So their success did benefit the competitiveness of the American economy and it’s citizens at large.

    Now these very companies are entering the middle aged phases of their business. They will be be driven to become the type of businesses that spawned their own inceptions. We are starting to see evidence of these stresses now. Amazon fighting the leftist causes of unionization and 3rd world labor exploration. Apple, Google, facebook and Netflix being forced to capitulate to cancel culture.

    It’s a tightrope walk that is not conducive to operating under the best long term business practices. Decision makers at the top will find willing bedfellows in congress to carve out and craft massive legislative efforts to “protect” the public from their evil practices, however that legislation will severely curtail their ability to quickly respond to newer and better business models. They’ll reluctantly wield the power of regulations to fight off competition while providing shareholders with regular but modest profits for decades.

    Eventually they will go the way if IBM, Sears, Warner Brothers, Ford/GM. Someone will come along one day and upset the apple cart again. My only hope is that those future disruptive business entities are born of the search for the same American Dream and not some government funded Chinese business incubator.
     

    LCPIWB

    Needs an avatar
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 17, 2011
    2,001
    Underneath the blimp, Md.
    Very delicate territory. Because it's that same 1A that allows a private company to set up a web site and say what they will, or provide (or deny) access to those who they will. If you're OK with Norton having the ban hammer, then you have to be OK with Facebook having one, too.

    The 1A was never meant to control editorial policies held by private people or organizations. It's meant to curtail the GOVERNMENT'S ability to squelch speech and assembly.

    The solution to this problem is the marketplace of ideas, and the marketplace for services meant to express and convey them. We (the constitutionalist, conservative types) dropped the ball for years, and allowed leftists to all but take over the entirety of the communications industry, and allowed nearly all of the R&D and hatching-out of dot-com style businesses to happen in Silicon Valley. The local culture shaped the big tech companies that grew up there.

    It's going to take venture capital from the other side of the spectrum (and now, against a hard wind blowing from the left) to establish some balance in media, entertainment, communication, finance, education, and governance. There are some signs of that starting to coalesce, but we have literally decades of barely giving a damn about any of that to make up for. It's precarious, to say the least. But there are some signs of hope. The left's frantic thrashing around with their Cancel Culture bludgeon shows that they know their corner on those generationally defined markets is starting to weaken.


    I would like to make one slight distinction.. What "private" truely means.
    As far as I know MDS is owned by Norton or someone and it is truely privately owned. Amazon and the like are owned by stockholders, the are not publicly owned but owned by a portion of the public. What if I buy stock in Amazon? Now I own a piece of Amazon. I would hold the right to speak up in a meeting. I think I should hold the right to use the services I own a piece of. We all know this is not how it plays out, but I think you are at least getting the point I am trying to make.
    I would say lots of people make up a whole, instead of suing, buy and take over.
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,239
    Montgomery County
    I would like to make one slight distinction.. What "private" truely means.
    As far as I know MDS is owned by Norton or someone and it is truely privately owned. Amazon and the like are owned by stockholders, the are not publicly owned but owned by a portion of the public. What if I buy stock in Amazon? Now I own a piece of Amazon. I would hold the right to speak up in a meeting. I think I should hold the right to use the services I own a piece of. We all know this is not how it plays out, but I think you are at least getting the point I am trying to make.
    I would say lots of people make up a whole, instead of suing, buy and take over.

    Your right, in the scenario you describe, is to convince enough other shareholders (or the board) that the company's policies need to change, and to be persuasive enough to cause that to happen. Most importantly: nobody forces you to buy a share of Amazon or FB or Google. You buy that stock (or hang on to it) in full knowledge (and, arguably, as tacit endorsement) of how the business conducts itself, and with what priorities/principles.

    Making shares of the company available for public trading does bring with it certain requirements for transparency and recordkeeping. But that doesn't make the company's executives somehow more vulnerable to a law suit based on, essentially, "I don't like how you do things." Unless that suit is about something the SEC/FTC etc would consider fraudulent. Customers can be defrauded, as can shareholders. But that's not with the OP complaint is about.

    Sure, a shareholder or a customer or anybody could sue McDonald's because they think it should go vegan instead of selling meat. That's not the way to get a huge company to change its world view or policies. The market is the way to do that - the market for customers AND the market for shareholders.

    Shy of a counter-first-amendment regulatory change that would totally upend our understanding of how both Facebook AND this here MDS web site relate to the world, the solution to this if the company in question doesn't want to change is to take one's business elsewhere. So, we need to find, start, support or otherwise cultivate a lot more "elsewheres" to which we can take our business. It's going to take years. Because it took years for the companies that now vex us to start and grow, and that's always the way.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    Very delicate territory. Because it's that same 1A that allows a private company to set up a web site and say what they will, or provide (or deny) access to those who they will. If you're OK with Norton having the ban hammer, then you have to be OK with Facebook having one, too.

    The 1A was never meant to control editorial policies held by private people or organizations. It's meant to curtail the GOVERNMENT'S ability to squelch speech and assembly.

    The solution to this problem is the marketplace of ideas, and the marketplace for services meant to express and convey them. We (the constitutionalist, conservative types) dropped the ball for years, and allowed leftists to all but take over the entirety of the communications industry, and allowed nearly all of the R&D and hatching-out of dot-com style businesses to happen in Silicon Valley. The local culture shaped the big tech companies that grew up there.

    It's going to take venture capital from the other side of the spectrum (and now, against a hard wind blowing from the left) to establish some balance in media, entertainment, communication, finance, education, and governance. There are some signs of that starting to coalesce, but we have literally decades of barely giving a damn about any of that to make up for. It's precarious, to say the least. But there are some signs of hope. The left's frantic thrashing around with their Cancel Culture bludgeon shows that they know their corner on those generationally defined markets is starting to weaken.

    It is not so simple as the marketplace of ideas is the solution. Many of these corporations are larger than many governments. They have become so large that they effectively operate like governments.

    If you don't like Twitter, you are suggesting that we start Parler. What happened to them? Are we supposed to recreate the whole economy?
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,239
    Montgomery County
    It is not so simple as the marketplace of ideas is the solution. Many of these corporations are larger than many governments. They have become so large that they effectively operate like governments.

    If you don't like Twitter, you are suggesting that we start Parler. What happened to them? Are we supposed to recreate the whole economy?

    I didn't say it was going to be easy. Parler, though, IS back online, and in an environment less vulnerable to petty leftist oligarchial tyrrany. Sure a concerted effort could still wreck them, but they've managed to put it back together and it's off and running as before, only now with more users than ever.

    We don't have to reinvent the whole economy. But if places like AWS start losing half of their business out of concern that AWS's policies leave too much room for capricious politicking in their day to day service providing, they'll change. Or, another company will absolutely take that business and run with it. That's not reinventing the economy, it's USING the economy exactly in the way it's supposed to work.
     

    ToolAA

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 17, 2016
    10,500
    God's Country
    It is not so simple as the marketplace of ideas is the solution. Many of these corporations are larger than many governments. They have become so large that they effectively operate like governments.

    If you don't like Twitter, you are suggesting that we start Parler. What happened to them? Are we supposed to recreate the whole economy?


    I think you are highlighting my point.

    When Apple was conceived IBM’s business was larger than most 3rd world countries. Same could be said if Sears and Roebuck in the late 18th century. In a free market economy the little company with big ideas can and often does overtake the established older business. Remember when AOL purchased Time-Warner.

    These mega businesses will stagnate and fall out of favor at some point in time, UNLESS they become government sanctioned entities, like business in Russia or China. As long as that doesn’t happen there is hope.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    I didn't say it was going to be easy. Parler, though, IS back online, and in an environment less vulnerable to petty leftist oligarchial tyrrany. Sure a concerted effort could still wreck them, but they've managed to put it back together and it's off and running as before, only now with more users than ever.

    We don't have to reinvent the whole economy. But if places like AWS start losing half of their business out of concern that AWS's policies leave too much room for capricious politicking in their day to day service providing, they'll change. Or, another company will absolutely take that business and run with it. That's not reinventing the economy, it's USING the economy exactly in the way it's supposed to work.

    Parler is sort of back online. It took them over a month and they still are not on Apple or Google. This is but one example. Under Obama, banks refused to deal with gun stores and there is some indication that Biden will bring this back. There is a point where private business starts acting like government and it becomes unfeasible to address the issue through the marketplace.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    I think you are highlighting my point.

    When Apple was conceived IBM’s business was larger than most 3rd world countries. Same could be said if Sears and Roebuck in the late 18th century. In a free market economy the little company with big ideas can and often does overtake the established older business. Remember when AOL purchased Time-Warner.

    These mega businesses will stagnate and fall out of favor at some point in time, UNLESS they become government sanctioned entities, like business in Russia or China. As long as that doesn’t happen there is hope.

    We do not live in a pure free market economy. There are lots of regulations that can make certain industries very difficult for small businesses to break into.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    Running a web site and publishing a simple client app is definitely not one of them.

    That is not exactly true. Serving a single page to a single person is trivial. Migrating a scalable website that has millions of people across the world, not so much. There is a reason why Amazon has such a large market share. It is not easy, which is why it took about a month and likely does not have the same functionality as the original website. Scalability is what makes replicating what these large businesses do extremely difficult.
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,239
    Montgomery County
    That is not exactly true. Serving a single page to a single person is trivial. Migrating a scalable website that has millions of people across the world, not so much. There is a reason why Amazon has such a large market share. It is not easy, which is why it took about a month and likely does not have the same functionality as the original website. Scalability is what makes replicating what these large businesses do extremely difficult.

    I know. I do this stuff for a living, and am currently working with customers scrambling to escape what they now see as the perils of commodity cloud infrastructure. The seduction was easy over the last few years. Now, building out footprints in data enters without Amazon’s (or Microsoft’s, or Google’s) potential boot on their neck is turning into a major race.
     

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