Working on Pistol Load Accuracy

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  • Rockzilla

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 6, 2010
    4,516
    55.751244 / 37.618423
    noticed that this mold plus clones are jacked up in price or unavailable right now.
    I do realize I'll have to "pay to play" to get the pistol/cartridge more accurate than what I have.

    Your right everything is priced stupid & crazy. The mentality now is buy what yo u can and buy it now. Have both the original
    H&G 68 and MiHec 68 Clone bought many moons ago. The MiHec mold is great, brass and a work of "art", retired the H&G in
    the meantime. Picked up the 4 ganger on a group buy. PC em now. If you want a good mold his are the way to go, maybe a
    little more but worth it.

    The Ransom Rest takes the "human factor"out..then is it the gun or the load.
    you'd be surprised

    Start running N310 powder more than any others and the Zero 185 JHP as a sub for the Nosler 185 JHP, figure if good
    enough for the AMU, why not try it.

    Some URL's (don't want to post to many)
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?232061*1911*Throating/page3

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...rel-find-a-max-o-a-l-with-your-bullet.506678/
    (will need to register or have account to see pictures)

    https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/reloading*tips*the*plunk*test/99389

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?365248*OAL*seating*of*HG68*in*45*ACP

    https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2016/4/07/usmc-match-45-load/

    https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t1209-pet-loads-of-top-shooters-loads-from-the-past


    -Rock
     
    Last edited:

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    As long as we're having an H&G 68 lovefest , I'll throw out two more classic loads in other categories :

    For good accuracy, at old school Major Power Factor - 5.7gr W-W 231

    For hunting - 7.0gr Unique . Work up if desired to 7.5gr ( probably beyond SAAMI for std .45acp , but upper end of .45acp +P , and generally gtg for steel 1911).
     

    Rockzilla

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 6, 2010
    4,516
    55.751244 / 37.618423
    As long as we're having an H&G 68 lovefest , I'll throw out two more classic loads in other categories :

    For good accuracy, at old school Major Power Factor - 5.7gr W-W 231

    For hunting - 7.0gr Unique . Work up if desired to 7.5gr ( probably beyond SAAMI for std .45acp , but upper end of .45acp +P , and generally gtg for steel 1911).

    Why not been shooting it for years actually tried them out on "pins"
    instead of burning through the "Flying Ashtrays" which worked great

    Nice loads, what kind of spring you running? 18#

    other molds laying around let's see if I remember
    452460,452374


    -Rock
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    That is exactly why it was designed. It punches holes that have defined edges which make it easier for scoring. As someone said earlier, not all 1911's will feed this bullet. Most new pistols have ramped barrels and enlarged ejection ports which will handle this bullet fine. Older, stock 1911's will have failure to feed and ejection issues especially if you try to eject a loaded round.

    Actually the 200 grain SWC was designed to be feed in 1911s.

    The old traditional bullet was a 185 grain SWC, that the nose was a good bit shorter. This bullet needs the feed ramp worked on and the barrel throated to feed this bullet.

    The 200 grain fixed a lot of this with the longer nose.

    The lowered/enlarged ejection port has nothing to do with the bullet being used. It has two things. 1) To reduce damage to the cases when ejecting and 2) prevent the case from not fully ejecting and causing a jam.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    I’m interested in this thread because I have an ample supply of Large Pistol Primers and shoot a Colt 1911 series 80. I was looking to obtain more accuracy for the action shooting series. I was looking at various, drop-in/match barrels, improved sights but decided against it. Choosing instead to keep the gun in its original state. The gun belonged to my father. I also noticed how loose the slide/frame tolerance is.
    Instead I decided to work on improving the shooter’s ability.
    I have those semi wad cutters pictured above in 185, 200 and I wanna say in 225 or 230 gr from National Bullet company.

    When I shot USPSA, most people just ran whatever it took to make Major.

    The difference between a 2" and 4" group at 50 yards made little difference.

    You wanted the lowest recoil (faster second round), but not scoring Minor.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    As long as we're having an H&G 68 lovefest , I'll throw out two more classic loads in other categories :

    For good accuracy, at old school Major Power Factor - 5.7gr W-W 231

    For hunting - 7.0gr Unique . Work up if desired to 7.5gr ( probably beyond SAAMI for std .45acp , but upper end of .45acp +P , and generally gtg for steel 1911).

    I ran 5.8, to make sure the off round did not go Minor.

    For the new Major, it looks like 5.4 grain of 231 should do it.
     

    bpm32

    Active Member
    Nov 26, 2010
    675
    Actually the 200 grain SWC was designed to be feed in 1911s.

    The old traditional bullet was a 185 grain SWC, that the nose was a good bit shorter. This bullet needs the feed ramp worked on and the barrel throated to feed this bullet.

    The 200 grain fixed a lot of this with the longer nose.

    The lowered/enlarged ejection port has nothing to do with the bullet being used. It has two things. 1) To reduce damage to the cases when ejecting and 2) prevent the case from not fully ejecting and causing a jam.

    You bring up a good point. There were also the Star Bullets 185GR LSWC-HPs that preserved the same profile as the standard 200GR, but had a hollow point to make them, well, 15GR lighter I guess. Zero makes a copy and sells directly—although they are often out of stock these days, they are constantly adding more:

    http://www.rozedist.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RZD&Category_Code=ZSB-45ACP
     

    bpm32

    Active Member
    Nov 26, 2010
    675
    Oh, I should also point out that 45 Auto is very forgiving. An example: Bullseye shooters shoot powderpuff loads, so at Camp Perry during Nationals you could actually see the bullets splashing down into the flooded ranges maybe 100 yards out. To make a point, one of the shooters went and collected some of the bullets (which looked okay except for the rifling marks) and loaded them into cracked cases. He Ransom Rested these and they easily held the 10 ring at the short line—so about 3” at 25 yards. Was he trolling?—well a little bit, but his point was that we didn’t have any excuses for not cleaning the short line.
     

    Magnumite

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 17, 2007
    6,564
    Harford County, Maryland
    My experience is if the barrel bushings on the pistols are loose a fitted bushing will show some improvement. No sense in any true load development until that is addressed. A set of calipers, two measurements, and an online or phone order to EGW will get bushing sized to the pistol.

    I’ve typically used 200 grain SWC for bulleye and steel/action shooting lower power factor shooting. In a decently accurate gun 2.5”@25 yards was a no brainer. In fitted barrel accurized guns 1.5” and smaller groups are the norm, typically around 1.25”. My load is what the measure throws in the 4.2-4.4 grains range of bullseye for around 725 fps.

    Get a good bullet in the 200 grain wright with a RN or RNFP profile and you will get good groups out of a finicky feeding pistol without the more involved work done to it to get SWC to feed.
     

    Trigger Time

    Amazed
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 23, 2013
    1,231
    EGW is great to deal with, they did a custom bushing for my GSG 22 conversion and actually saved me from smashing if with a hammer.
     

    Speedluvn

    Active Member
    Dec 23, 2019
    340
    Baltimore County
    My experience is if the barrel bushings on the pistols are loose a fitted bushing will show some improvement. No sense in any true load development until that is addressed. A set of calipers, two measurements, and an online or phone order to EGW will get bushing sized to the pistol.

    Tighten up the loose movement in my frame was the information I’ve been looking for and didn’t realize was possible without expensive guns smithing. I appreciate the EGW lead. Thanks!
     
    Last edited:

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Interesting on the bushing which I thought about some myself before seeing the post.
    I measured the barrel OD and the bushing ID on both my 1911s

    GI 1911A1
    OD .579 ID .584

    ATI 1911 (A low end priced 1911)
    OD .579 ID .586

    What would be considered a "tight" tolerance?
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,734
    Socialist State of Maryland
    Interesting on the bushing which I thought about some myself before seeing the post.
    I measured the barrel OD and the bushing ID on both my 1911s

    GI 1911A1
    OD .579 ID .584

    ATI 1911 (A low end priced 1911)
    OD .579 ID .586

    What would be considered a "tight" tolerance?

    Hint: It's not that. :lol:

    When I used to make Bullseye guns, I would lap the bushing to the barrel so that you needed a wrench to take off the bushing. It isn't just the clearance between bushing and barrel, it is the direction of the clearance.

    The barrel has to have clearance to be pushed up into the locking lugs and when pulled down and out of battery. Don't do anything, including wasting more ammo until you read the books I am sending. Then you can order a bushing from Brownells and any other tools you may need. I will tell you that I have used fine wet/dry paper and a dowl to fit some bushings when I didn't have access to my tools. You can do it the same way as long as you understand where you want to remove metal on the bushing.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Thx John, I have only been target shooting the Buckmark since last week. (My Glock 22 conversion was not at paper). I'll do some reading when the book comes.
    I did buy something on Saturday but it was not any gun parts for the 2 1911s I have :)
     

    Magnumite

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 17, 2007
    6,564
    Harford County, Maryland
    Interesting on the bushing which I thought about some myself before seeing the post.
    I measured the barrel OD and the bushing ID on both my 1911s

    GI 1911A1
    OD .579 ID .584

    ATI 1911 (A low end priced 1911)
    OD .579 ID .586

    What would be considered a "tight" tolerance?

    What John said.

    I am assuming your O.D.’s are .679”. Most slide ID’s run around .696” to .699”. If is a Para it will typically be over .700”.

    A GI spec barrel is .575” OD. Modern barrels tend to have a nominal OD of .580”.

    So you can see what you have compared to the specs.
     

    ironhead7544

    Active Member
    Oct 27, 2018
    188
    For the 1911, I would get a match barrel and bushing set that can be dropped in.

    Fitting a match bushing requires fitting the bushing to slide and the barrel to the inside of the bushing. The barrel must be relived in a lathe from the point the bushing is fitted back a ways to allow the barrel to drop out of battery.

    There are a number of ways to get accuracy out of the 1911. Check out the net.

    You said you are using a reduced man type target. I would try the standard 25 yard round target. Use a six oclock sight picture. This will allow you to see the white paper through the sights. Just leave a little white over the top of the front sight. Also, shoot two hands from a rest. You are testing the mechanical accuracy of the pistol/ammo.

    For the 9mm, try the 147 gr bullets.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    A common thread here.

    Work on the pistol, not the load. These days, a drop in barrel/bushing combo will gain you most of what hand fitting will do. And few shooters can use that extra bit off accuracy.

    And even more importantly, work on the SHOOTER.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Thx all,
    I've already been working on the Shooter. Been taking the Buckmark to the range (including this morning before work) shooting paper and a 6" round steel plate I already had one handed. I do like shooting the steel cause I get instant feedback and when I miss, I can see where it hits with the dirt on the berm. (berm is 50 yards so the drop difference is less than an inch)
    I'm no competition shooter but right now, I'm happy with my hit/miss ratio when I take my time which is about 75% or better I think. Its a start, Maybe next time out I'll start recording it in a log just to track progress
    I figure when (or if) a 6" round steel plate at 25 yards gets too easy, I can go to paper or down to a 4" plate which I already have.

    As far as the gun, I think the with the ATI 1911 , I may tinker with getting it more accurate not sure though. In the mean time, my 30 year anniversary present is being picked up on Saturday (I hope), then I drive to Va to my wife's favorite Jeweler to pick hers up. Can you GUESS whose present will cost more? yup, happy wife happy life.

    Hopefully, I'll be loading up some lead this week. I can at least compare the 2 guns with it. I also have a Lyman SWC mold coming from an ebay purchase.
     

    byf43

    SCSC Life/NRA Patron Life
    As long as we're having an H&G 68 lovefest , I'll throw out two more classic loads in other categories :

    For good accuracy, at old school Major Power Factor - 5.7gr W-W 231


    ^^^^ This x 100,000!!!!!!

    I've used a 200 gr LSWC #68 H&G clone bullet from "All American Ammo" and then re-named "NSK Bullets" for a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnng time.
    (Best hardcast boolits I've ever used in my Gold Cup.)

    The load mentioned above, was what I got from an old magazine article about the pet loads of the .45 acp top shooters (or something like that).

    In my Gold Cup NM, I use a 1.260" COAL and with 5.7 gr of 231, I get an average of 907 fps (which used to make 'old school' power factor).

    When I did my part (off sandbags) that load would make one big hole at 25 yards. (About 2 to 2-1/2".)

    The ONLY thing I did to my Gold Cup, is replace the factory #14 lb recoil spring, for an #18.5 Wolff Recoil Spring, before shooting that load.


    Lastly, I sure miss the days of buying these boolits for $23.00 per thousand!!! :)
     

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