CONFLICTING 62g .223 H4895 & IMR 3031 LOAD DATA

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  • DHCraig

    Member
    Aug 21, 2012
    66
    South County
    Recently got in a batch of 62 grain FMJ bullets to reload for my ARs. This is my first experience with loading 62g bullets and I noticed some rather severe conflicts in my load data. Hodgdon's online data for H4895 w/ a 62 grain bullet lists a 21 grain minimum load (2740 fps @ 42,300 psi) and a 23 grain max (3004 fps @ 53,000 psi), yet my Lee Modern Reloading lists a load using a 63 grain jacketed bullet with a starting load of H4895 at 23.5 grains (2831 fps) and a max of 25.5 grains (3078 fps @ 50,000 cup). Clearly there is an issue with someone's data.

    To add to the confusion, Hodgdon's online data also lists a 62 grain jacketed bullet load using IMR 3031 as 20.3 grains to start (2700 fps @ 43,500 psi) with a 22 grain max (2940 fps @ 53,100 psi), whereas Lee Modern Reloading lists not only a 63 grain jacketed bullet with IMR 3031 at 21 grain minimum (2737 fps) up to 23.3 max (3018 fps @ 53,000 psi), but also a 69 grain jacketed bullet load using IMR 3031 at 21 grains start (2707 fps) and 22.5 grains max (2906 fps @ 52,800 psi). Seems to be an even bigger issue here...


    Though I plan to query both Hodgdon and Lee, I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has experience using either powder in .223/5.56 with a 62 grain bullet. I suspect the Hodgdon data has been intentionally reduced, but then the reason I've never had anything worse than a 12 gauge squib since I started reloading in 1985 is that I don't rely on assumptions...
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    That's not the only place you will find that sort of thing.

    Hodgdon also shows the 24" barrel. Not sure what barrel Lee uses.
    Keep in mind that if they are doing testing, they are using THEIR test barrel and you are using YOURS.
    They are also going to be different bullets loaded to different depths in their tests. Very often in 223 they are loading to max depth and in the case of Hodgdon, that is what they are listing. Lee is showing a shorter depth (which usually means HIGHER pressure) . Go figure.
    Multiple sources, pick a low load, chrono it and work your way up.
    Lee will use THEIRS but not yours. You will hear this over and over again to start low and work up looking for pressure signs.

    Then when there are new revisions out, things will then change.
     

    DHCraig

    Member
    Aug 21, 2012
    66
    South County
    Thanks for the quick responses. I was thinking test barrel length and seating but tried to keep it too simple. Still seems a long way off though. I've had no problems using Lee's Modern Reloading data (sticking to > or = min OAL specs per) but this is the furthest deviation I've run across to date on a single load.

    Put in a query to the manufacturer too, hoping for a reply soon. I suspect they are LC seconds but that's a guess for now. Hopefully I hear something soon. I didn't weigh a bunch but 10 random had a .3 grain spread, which is much better than my 147 grain 7.62 fmj "plinkers," which varied 147.4 to 148.8g with 100 weighed. Guess they shoulda called them 148 grain LOL
     

    Uncle Duke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    11,667
    Not Far Enough from the City
    I don't have the comparative data in front of me. But amongst other possible variables, what you are seeing may well be primarily a significant difference in the bullets being used. Not all 62/63 grain bullets are created equal. In other words, different bullets of differing design and bearing surface may have the same weight, but by virtue of design and/or construction can yield significantly different results.
     

    DHCraig

    Member
    Aug 21, 2012
    66
    South County
    Hadn't thought of that but makes sense. As I did here I traditionally presumed weight as the controlling factor but, like tracer vs ball, length can certainly be different. Unfortunately I've not seen published data of things like bullet length. Hopefully one of the producers will shed some more light on this too. Meanwhile I better find an M855 to pull down, if nothing else than to measure bullet length.
     

    Uncle Duke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    11,667
    Not Far Enough from the City
    Hadn't thought of that but makes sense. As I did here I traditionally presumed weight as the controlling factor but, like tracer vs ball, length can certainly be different. Unfortunately I've not seen published data of things like bullet length. Hopefully one of the producers will shed some more light on this too. Meanwhile I better find an M855 to pull down, if nothing else than to measure bullet length.

    Not so much length as bullet ogive design. If you wish to research it, look up Secant vs.Tangent ogives, and pay particular attention to bullet taper and corresponding differences in bullet bearing surface.

    Getting off bullets, remember also an important general rule. With load data generally, each REPUTABLE data source will specify a specific case, a specific primer, a specific powder, and a specific bullet. It should also indicate some barrel and seating depth information.

    Vary ANY of these component pieces, and you're using a different than published combination.

    Does it matter? Yep! How much? Maybe very little. Maybe a whole lot. The correct answer is, short of having your own personal access to a ballistics lab, you won't truly know. Not for sure anyway. Beware of being told otherwise, because nobody else without a lab knows for sure either. All part of why you start low and "Work Up" loads. And as you so properly mentioned, don't assume.

    Your first question when seeing greatly disparate load data? What am I missing? What's different? Am I, or am I not, comparing apples and apples?
     

    DHCraig

    Member
    Aug 21, 2012
    66
    South County
    Thanks Uncle Duke,

    Good point! This is one of those times I wish I'd have devoted more time to college trig LOL... Going to read up on this and crash on it, and wanted to thank you and the other folks who chimed in on my question. This is a wonderful resource! Kind regards, Dave
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,159
    Check several more books and you may find several more differences of opinion and each will have data to back up their position. They are not necessarily right or wrong but reflect differences in specific components, testing equipment, test procedures, and reporting policies. Always check several reliable references to be certain one is not way off or you miss read something, then start low and work your way up looking for pressure signs. The load you develop will be unique to your specific components, reloading dies equipment and methods, and your own "test" barrel and chamber. When it comes to ballistics everything can make a difference so find what works for you and document it in your note book so you can repeat it in the future.
     

    KRC

    Active Member
    Sep 30, 2018
    615
    Cecil County MD
    Not 62 gr., but for H4895 reference:
    Node loads for 2 AR's chambered in .223 Wylde:
    > 55 gr. SBKs 25.5 gr. H4895 (both rifles)
    > 69 gr. SMKs 24.1 gr. and 24.5 gr. H4895
    For 77 gr. SMKs, Varget works better than H4895.
    Rifle 1 has a 16" barrel, Rifle 2 an 18" barrel. No idea what velocities are.
    None of these are hot loads.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Thanks Uncle Duke,

    Good point! This is one of those times I wish I'd have devoted more time to college trig LOL... Going to read up on this and crash on it, and wanted to thank you and the other folks who chimed in on my question. This is a wonderful resource! Kind regards, Dave

    If you have Lee load data then you may very well have a copy of Lees modern reloading book.
    The answer to your question can be found in/near the section where the writer provides information regarding dippers/ powder volume etc.
    If you like engineering formulae the British textbook of small arms 1927 provides the foundation for Lee's work done later on that was substantiated with Hodgdon powder company prior to its publication and is in the ammunition/canister powder sections(s) of the older treatise.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Not 62 gr., but for H4895 reference:
    Node loads for 2 AR's chambered in .223 Wylde:
    > 55 gr. SBKs 25.5 gr. H4895 (both rifles)
    > 69 gr. SMKs 24.1 gr. and 24.5 gr. H4895
    For 77 gr. SMKs, Varget works better than H4895.
    Rifle 1 has a 16" barrel, Rifle 2 an 18" barrel. No idea what velocities are.
    None of these are hot loads.

    What's your node for 77 SMK with H4895 and Varget?

    Thanks.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Remember, that max in the book is NOT max for YOUR rifle.

    You max maybe lower or higher than the book max. Chamber dimensions, throat length, and other factors are involved.

    If you look at the OCW method, it actually has to go above the book max, but VERY small increments. Such that if X increment has no pressure signs, X+1 will have pressure signs (and you don't shoot any more of them or any higher loads), but not jump high enough to be a problem.

    When I get downstairs, I will check Sierra for their loads for those powders.

    IIRC, Hornady book only lists groups of bullets, by weight. So all 67 - 69 grain would be one table of load data.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    I don't have the comparative data in front of me. But amongst other possible variables, what you are seeing may well be primarily a significant difference in the bullets being used. Not all 62/63 grain bullets are created equal. In other words, different bullets of differing design and bearing surface may have the same weight, but by virtue of design and/or construction can yield significantly different results.

    Also what cases did they use? A thick case compared to a thin one can make a BIG difference in peak pressure for the same load.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Ok, Sierra is also doing one table for a given weight, regardless of which bullet.

    For 63 grain for AR

    H4895 - No load. IMR4895 23.5 grain for 2600 fpos, max 24.3 for 2700 fps.

    IMR3031 - No load.


    For BOLT ACTION

    H4895 - 21.8 grains at 2600 fps, max of 25.3 for 3100 fps
    IMR3031 - No load

    Lyman 49th Edition

    H4895 - No load

    IMR3031 - Start 20.0, max 22/5at 2777 fps No pressures listed
     

    KRC

    Active Member
    Sep 30, 2018
    615
    Cecil County MD
    What's your node for 77 SMK with H4895 and Varget?

    Thanks.

    Node for both rifles for 77 SMK's with Varget is 23.4 gr.
    But:
    1) bullets are moly coated.
    2) COAL for one rifle is 2.270" (just fit in mag)
    3) COAL for other rifle is 2.340" (requires "cut-out" mag)
    4) the chamber on one AR is much tighter than the other.
    5) barrels are SS "Varmint" heavy contour
    As with the H4895 55/69 gr. bullet loads these are not hot loads.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Node for both rifles for 77 SMK's with Varget is 23.4 gr.
    But:
    1) bullets are moly coated.
    2) COAL for one rifle is 2.270" (just fit in mag)
    3) COAL for other rifle is 2.340" (requires "cut-out" mag)
    4) the chamber on one AR is much tighter than the other.
    5) barrels are SS "Varmint" heavy contour
    As with the H4895 55/69 gr. bullet loads these are not hot loads.

    Thanks.

    I know you said that Varget shoots better. How much better?

    And did you find a good node for H4895?
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Another reason conflicting data occurs is because differing bullets from manufacturers even of near the same weight have different hardness's depending how they are alloyed.
    Some are harder than others and react differently at set up, forcement and then as friction occurs throughout barrel travel until they are finally free.
     

    DHCraig

    Member
    Aug 21, 2012
    66
    South County
    Thanks for the responses everyone. Now to go back and read the section on dippers I skipped over... Either way it looks like this will take a few trips to the range to clear up, which certainly isn't a bad thing.
     

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