Trespass by Md DNR Police
- Thread starter mikem623
- Start date
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SCOTUS precedent. There was a big write up recently [ETA here it is https://www.agweb.com/article/government-cameras-hidden-private-property-welcome-open-fields ] I hate to point to Wikipedia, but it’s a decent synopsis: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-fields_doctrine
There have been a few criminal prosecutions resulting from people taking down government cameras on their property; the write up I mentioned included a couple recent examples of such things.
Is the owner information on the camera? Whar turd world/clown world shit land kangaroo court goes along w that? Never mind. Im not drunk enough to process. Not that this is new. Its just depressing.
Read that agweb article if you really want to get your blood boiling....
- Jan 17, 2013
- 1,684
Open fields is a very interesting subject. I believe it was in TN recently that DNR got slapped down by courts for putting up game cams on private property.
All of my interactions in MD and PA have been fine. One of my favorite fishing stories involved to two DNR cops that checked us on my grandfathers old work boat one day. When the were done, they were in their zodiac beside us finishing their paperwork, one had his leg up on the pontoon of their boat and our bilge pump kicked on. Soaked his crotch and their entire binder. Luckily the water was clean and they had a good sense of humor...
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All of my interactions in MD and PA have been fine. One of my favorite fishing stories involved to two DNR cops that checked us on my grandfathers old work boat one day. When the were done, they were in their zodiac beside us finishing their paperwork, one had his leg up on the pontoon of their boat and our bilge pump kicked on. Soaked his crotch and their entire binder. Luckily the water was clean and they had a good sense of humor...
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I no longer hunt locally, we target shoot on the lands and see deer daily so it is not a challenge nor a "hunt". However, we with properties connecting will ask DNR to meet with us pre-season as a group, then tell them who and where we may be, I give up good spots to friends and new hunters so this helps them learn then have a good experience in the field.
So, you want to hunt the Kings deer do ya?
So, you want to hunt the Kings deer do ya?
Oh it did. All of my interactions with DNR have been positive for what it's worth but this is Marylandistan. All it takes is one asshat with an agenda , bad mood or bored to ruin you. I still do the paper tag thing just in case I run into an officer who is not up on current law.
mauser58
My home is a sports store
Sure I would carry too on my own land. In W.V and Tennessee where two of my sons live most people carry. Should be the same here in Maryland. When I go to W.V. many people carry nd you dont see much crime either. Hopefully in Maryland one day we all can carry with out the nonsense laws we have now.
basscat
Ultimate Member
- Jul 23, 2012
- 1,397
My interaction with the fish cops wasn't so pleasant. Fishing on the Potomac several years back, working a hard bank, here comes the DNR boat. There were several other bass boats working the same bank about 50 yards from each other. Saw the DNR approach one boat, left then went to the next and so on. Said to my partner, "looks like they're checking fishing license ". They proceed to roll up on me at a rather quick speed. Mind you now, I'm fishing, trolling motor down, slowly creeping along. They pull along side causing a big wake and proceed to ram into the side of my boat! Shit got ugly from there on out. No respect for others property. Didnt even have the decency to put out fender bumpers. After getting their names and boat number and some choice words they just took off. Never did find out what they wanted.
mauser58
My home is a sports store
Wow. Sounds like they need some retraining on boat safety.
Afrikeber
Ultimate Member
I overheard a conversation in a recent meeting that the U.S Army Corps of Engineers has full authority of all navigable waterways in the U.S. sounds like you add up all these government agencies and enforcement agencies you the people have authority of nothing.
What kind of authority?
Excellent question as they have no police powers.
****Huh? I know people in the Corps of Engineers. They don't have any police powers.
The COE has authority over all navigable waterways through the Rivers and Harbors acts. Its one of the oldest enviro. laws but it was originally meant keep waterways navigable for commerce. It was during a time (starting around 1826) when waterways would be routinely blocked by things like abandoned, sunk ships and be so polluted they would catch fire. Some case law expanded this authority to very small waterways like small farm ditches.
I don't have the least idea who would be the actual gun slingers in an enforcement situation with the COE authority under this law. Coast Guard? FBI?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivers_and_Harbors_Act
- Jul 29, 2014
- 49,999
I came across this...
https://www.hnc.usace.army.mil/About/Mission-and-Vision/
We've come far afield from DNR entering private land without invitation, but I guess it's just normal thread drift.
https://www.hnc.usace.army.mil/About/Mission-and-Vision/
We've come far afield from DNR entering private land without invitation, but I guess it's just normal thread drift.
Teflon
Member
Thanks for the heads up OP, I'd never heard of Open Fields doctrine. It's pretty disappointing and I can't see how this is legal. I understand that outside people can't have an expectation of privacy, esp in a truly 'open field', but some of these cases (wikipedia, agweb) where DNR are using surveillance (game cams) and trespassing into hidden wooden areas without a warrant is RIDICULOUS.
Which brings up another question, how can they stop and ask for a hunting/fishing license, check weapons, etc as highlighted in posts when police can't just stop random drivers and check their license without probable cause? There seems to be quite the double standard.
And, where does it end? Can ATF stop onto my property when I'm shooting to make sure my AR is pre-2013? Or if I'm shooting a suppressor, to make sure I have my stamp? If I don't have a concealed carry permit, does this mean I can't carry a pistol on my property? If I'm carrying a long gun while walking in the woods, would I be cited for hunting out of season? The questions are endless...
For all those who say 'don't break the law and it's not a problem', I'd just say that's not how the 4th amendment works. It doesn't make sense that it extends to my car but not the edge of my property line.
Which brings up another question, how can they stop and ask for a hunting/fishing license, check weapons, etc as highlighted in posts when police can't just stop random drivers and check their license without probable cause? There seems to be quite the double standard.
And, where does it end? Can ATF stop onto my property when I'm shooting to make sure my AR is pre-2013? Or if I'm shooting a suppressor, to make sure I have my stamp? If I don't have a concealed carry permit, does this mean I can't carry a pistol on my property? If I'm carrying a long gun while walking in the woods, would I be cited for hunting out of season? The questions are endless...
For all those who say 'don't break the law and it's not a problem', I'd just say that's not how the 4th amendment works. It doesn't make sense that it extends to my car but not the edge of my property line.
Like Doctor M, I too am a NRP Reserve Officer. I just wanted to clarify a few things for you folks having this discussion.
1) some of you are using DNR when you really mean NRP. They really are two different animals. They are both DNR employees but the NRP is strictly Law Enforcement. 2) One of the reasons that NRP interactions don't go the same as in some other states is that our officers are police officers more than game wardens. In States that have game wardens, they get more training with regards fishing, hunting, animals, fish, insects, crops etc. Some states require you to have a degree in a related field, biology, agriculture, animal husbandry and the like. Here, we mostly train our officers to enforce the Laws and Regulations of the State of Maryland. If they happen to know something about hunting and fishing, its a plus but it isn't really a prerequisite.
If an officer happened to fish and hunt and loves the outdoors, then how he interacts with you is going to be 180 degrees from the officer who transferred in from Baltimore City and the only fish he ever saw was in the Giant store. I have worked with NRP while on the job as well as a Reserve Officer and from what I have seen, probably only 25% have really spent a lot of time doing the stuff that they regulate.
So, while you may meet a guy who fawns over your kill or ask to handle your rifle cause he would really like to get one like it, you are more likely to meet Joe Friday when you are out and about.
1) some of you are using DNR when you really mean NRP. They really are two different animals. They are both DNR employees but the NRP is strictly Law Enforcement. 2) One of the reasons that NRP interactions don't go the same as in some other states is that our officers are police officers more than game wardens. In States that have game wardens, they get more training with regards fishing, hunting, animals, fish, insects, crops etc. Some states require you to have a degree in a related field, biology, agriculture, animal husbandry and the like. Here, we mostly train our officers to enforce the Laws and Regulations of the State of Maryland. If they happen to know something about hunting and fishing, its a plus but it isn't really a prerequisite.
If an officer happened to fish and hunt and loves the outdoors, then how he interacts with you is going to be 180 degrees from the officer who transferred in from Baltimore City and the only fish he ever saw was in the Giant store. I have worked with NRP while on the job as well as a Reserve Officer and from what I have seen, probably only 25% have really spent a lot of time doing the stuff that they regulate.
So, while you may meet a guy who fawns over your kill or ask to handle your rifle cause he would really like to get one like it, you are more likely to meet Joe Friday when you are out and about.
With driving an officer can run your plate and see a variety of things. For example, is the owner licensed? Is their license suspended?
IIRC there is currently some stuff on if that could be considered cause for pulling someone over, but I know it generally can be used for such.
An officer pulling you over is effectively a temporary detention.
However if you are engaged in what appears to be hunting or fishing you are required to be licensed and you can legally be asked to produce that proof. Now, I’ve got no clue what legal basis an officer would have to inspect your firearm, for say a plug, unless they were told or observed something that made them think you had a >2+1 shotgun hunting turkey or whatever.
My guess is, they do it because almost no one tells them no. Just like officers ask to search your vehicle all the time. Maybe there is legal precedent they can and it would be admissible without permission.
Asking for a license isn’t a detention. For driving you are required to present your license to an officer. It is just that they can’t pull you over to request it without some other probable cause to execute what is, again, a temporary detention.
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