Long Range Shooting

E.Shell · Aug 30, 2021

Pinecone said:
I agree with the advice of .308 or 6.5CM for under 1000 yards.

.338 makes no sense UNDER 1000 yards. Same with .50 cal...

The advantages of the .308 are that some long range matches are limited to the .308, and that match ammo is normally plentiful. While it can be quite precise at closer distances, long range performance is not especially impressive. It remains popular due to the military using it (mainly for logistical reasons and not for exceptional long range performance, which it lacks) and the mindset that 'if it's good enough for the military...'.

The 6.5 Creedmoor (.260Rem clone) is popular for several very good reasons and is an excellent choice. For trajectory and wind deflection to about 1k, the Creedmoor's numbers rival a .300 WinMag, while using way less lead and powder. Recoil is modest, barrel life is better than many long range cartridges and there are quite a few very accurate factory rounds available. For casual shooting to about 1,200 yards, the 6.5 Creedmoor does a VERY good job.

Anything smaller than 6.5 gets hard to spot at long distance, and in steel matches, you can lose points due to inability to see hits and get credit for them, or to see misses and have the ability to correct.

As Pinecone points out, the .338LM and the .50BMG don't make sense until you exceed a certain distance. Based on average trajectory and wind numbers, you really need to get past about 1,400-1,500 yards for the Lapua to exceed what performance is available with a good .300 WinMag load.

Additionally, as cartridge cases get bigger, it gets harder to establish a good working load with low SD, critical to long range success. So yeah, you might have less drop and wind, but groups just went vertical.

The .50BMG is in the same boat, and add to that the problem of finding a place to shoot one.[/QUOTE]

steves1911 · Aug 30, 2021

COACH1106 said:
Yes the Cross is only a 18" barrel

I'm not sure what the creed would look like from a 18" but I can tell you I lost 80fps shooting the same ammo in my 18" ar10 compared to my 20" bolt gun in 308. Some of that is the gas system and variance between barells but if this is a dedicated 1k yd setup don't handicap yourself with a short bbl. 22-24" is a pretty happy medium 26" if you want to ring all the speed out of it that you can. I could see a 20" if you plan to go supressed. Not saying it can't be done with a shorter bbl but it won't be as easy.

dbledoc · Aug 30, 2021

E.Shell said:
The advantages of the .308 are that some long range matches are limited to the .308, and that match ammo is normally plentiful. While it can be quite precise at closer distances, long range performance is not especially impressive. It remains popular due to the military using it (mainly for logistical reasons and not for exceptional long range performance, which it lacks) and the mindset that 'if it's good enough for the military...'.

The 6.5 Creedmoor (.260Rem clone) is popular for several very good reasons and is an excellent choice. For trajectory and wind deflection to about 1k, the Creedmoor's numbers rival a .300 WinMag, while using way less lead and powder. Recoil is modest, barrel life is better than many long range cartridges and there are quite a few very accurate factory rounds available. For casual shooting to about 1,200 yards, the 6.5 Creedmoor does a VERY good job.

Anything smaller than 6.5 gets hard to spot at long distance, and in steel matches, you can lose points due to inability to see hits and get credit for them, or to see misses and have the ability to correct.

As Pinecone points out, the .338LM and the .50BMG don't make sense until you exceed a certain distance. Based on average trajectory and wind numbers, you really need to get past about 1,400-1,500 yards for the Lapua to exceed what performance is available with a good .300 WinMag load.

Additionally, as cartridge cases get bigger, it gets harder to establish a good working load with low SD, critical to long range success. So yeah, you might have less drop and wind, but groups just went vertical.

The .50BMG is in the same boat, and add to that the problem of finding a place to shoot one.

[/QUOTE]

This. E-shell has forgotten more about long range shooting than any of us will probably ever know or learn!

Swaim13 · Aug 30, 2021

These are some of the production rifles I was talking about:
https://masterpiecearms.com/shop/mpa-ba-pmr-pro-rifle-ii/
https://www.gaprecision.net/pinnacle-production-rifle-ppr.html
https://www.americanrifle.com/shop/...-20-6-5cm-nucleus-gen2-rifle-1200?category=26

Rockzilla · Aug 30, 2021

HiStandards said:
Go old school. In the 1880's the Army shot 1000 yard matches with .45-70 and vernier sights.

Sign me up...

like some have said
6.5 CM / 7.62 under 1K, 6.5CM seems to be the mainstream choice. It is what it is, was a late to the "party" on it.
way over 1K 338 LM, 408 Cheytac, 50 BMG..the bigger boys a frowned upon, looking for a place to shoot them to
get the most out of them. and you...

actions are Remington 700's, Barrels range from a Hart SS, Krieger, Bartlein. all 308 Winchester.
The 338LM is the TRG-42, great rifle, picked it up for a great price new at a gun show.That's topped with a S&B PMII
Then the 50 a Barrett 82. The 408 Cheytac looking into a 700 action 6.5 Swede, just need the action (700) or rifle that I can
use just the action that won't cost a ton of money. Anyway...would go with a 7.62, 700 action or just buy a M40(x) be done..
some good Glass, Steiner, S&B, Leupold MK5 and do some reloading...just a thought...

-Rock

davsco · Aug 30, 2021

as noted above 6.5 creed is a pretty good LR choice. great ballistics, variety of good factory ammo, little recoil.

look on peacemaker's website for some upcoming long range challenge matches and hit one of those, can see what everyone is using (gun, glass, etc) and ask all the ? you want. might even be able to fondle and even shoot some folks' guns after the match. quantico is also doing PRS matches and ditto for that.

unless you're going to be dragging it around in the tight woods, get a longer rather than shorter barrel for the extra velocity (= less drop and less wind drift). if you might be doing matches in the future, most places disallow anything bigger/stronger than 300 win mag as it can trash their steel.

Pinecone · Aug 30, 2021

Also, since E. Shell is not teaching these days, get yourself down to BangSteel and spend some time with Dan Newberry.

Maybe even do that FIRST. You can rent a rifle from him and ring some steel at 1000 yards on day 2.

Heck, if you aren't going to reload, he cuts you a deal on the rental if he gets the brass.

rbird7282 · Aug 30, 2021

E.Shell said:
The advantages of the .308 are that some long range matches are limited to the .308, and that match ammo is normally plentiful. While it can be quite precise at closer distances, long range performance is not especially impressive. It remains popular due to the military using it (mainly for logistical reasons and not for exceptional long range performance, which it lacks) and the mindset that 'if it's good enough for the military...'.

The 6.5 Creedmoor (.260Rem clone) is popular for several very good reasons and is an excellent choice. For trajectory and wind deflection to about 1k, the Creedmoor's numbers rival a .300 WinMag, while using way less lead and powder. Recoil is modest, barrel life is better than many long range cartridges and there are quite a few very accurate factory rounds available. For casual shooting to about 1,200 yards, the 6.5 Creedmoor does a VERY good job.

Anything smaller than 6.5 gets hard to spot at long distance, and in steel matches, you can lose points due to inability to see hits and get credit for them, or to see misses and have the ability to correct.

As Pinecone points out, the .338LM and the .50BMG don't make sense until you exceed a certain distance. Based on average trajectory and wind numbers, you really need to get past about 1,400-1,500 yards for the Lapua to exceed what performance is available with a good .300 WinMag load.

Additionally, as cartridge cases get bigger, it gets harder to establish a good working load with low SD, critical to long range success. So yeah, you might have less drop and wind, but groups just went vertical.

The .50BMG is in the same boat, and add to that the problem of finding a place to shoot one.

[/QUOTE]

OP, I was going to respond to you but Ed said what I had in mind plus a LOT more. He has forgotten more about long range shooting than I’ll learn in my lifetime. Listen to him.

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Mini14tac · Aug 30, 2021

Here is a impressive video of a guy that took a Ruger American Predator in 6.5 CM out to a mile.

https://youtu.be/tgxmfFui4HY

Park ranger · Aug 30, 2021

You will get to pick two of the 3. Low Recoil, wind drift and drop, and barrel life. The 6.5 is a good compromise.

Silverlax · Aug 30, 2021

COACH1106 said:
Just the firearm, I know I'll probably be spending another 1-2K at least on the optic plus bipod etc.

You don’t need a $3000 rifle to get out to a grand and especially not under that distance. I had a stock savage 308 and a vortex 16x and have hit at a 1000. That setup was under $1200 before bipod and have since put aics bottom metal on.

BigRick · Aug 30, 2021

Silverlax said:
You don’t need a $3000 rifle to get out to a grand and especially not under that distance. I had a stock savage 308 and a vortex 16x and have hit at a 1000. That setup was under $1200 before bipod and have since put aics bottom metal on.

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. Savage makes very accurate rifles for a fraction of a cost. I have several that shoot under 1 Moa. with the correct loads. My 300 win mag shoots .34 Moa with hornday match ammo. my 6mm Creedmoor shoots .36 Moa with hornday match ammo both rifles are savages. I haven't even tried handloads with these because they shoot so well with factory ammo. I do have a sako trg 42 in 338 lapua that shoots .75 Moa with handloads.

AlBeight · Aug 31, 2021

COACH1106 said:
Factory ammo and as far as distance I'd be happy with getting out to 500 yards at Peacemaker. I'd love the ability to take it to 1,000 yds given the ability to find a range to that distance.

Peacemaker is that range. You can go to Frontier Days and practice all you want, often to beyond 1,000 yds. Best of luck in your endeavor. Plenty of help here if you need it.

Squaregrouper · Aug 31, 2021

Silverlax said:
You don’t need a $3000 rifle to get out to a grand and especially not under that distance. I had a stock savage 308 and a vortex 16x and have hit at a 1000. That setup was under $1200 before bipod and have since put aics bottom metal on.

BigRick said:
This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. Savage makes very accurate rifles for a fraction of a cost. I have several that shoot under 1 Moa. with the correct loads. My 300 win mag shoots .34 Moa with hornday match ammo. my 6mm Creedmoor shoots .36 Moa with hornday match ammo both rifles are savages. I haven't even tried handloads with these because they shoot so well with factory ammo. I do have a sako trg 42 in 338 lapua that shoots .75 Moa with handloads.

This. El Cheapo (TC Compass in 6.5CM), a Vortex 4-12x44 and a Caldwell bipod shoots <0.5MOA all day long. I think I paid about $400 for the whole set up. The only modification was a lighter trigger spring.
Pretty sure TC stopped production, so if you can find one, jump on it as an entry level long range rifle.

Robertjeter · Sep 1, 2021

I shoot 6.5CR long range. Widely available, little recoil, highly accurate, and lots of information on reloading data. What else do you need?

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Robertjeter · Sep 1, 2021

BigRick said:
This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. Savage makes very accurate rifles for a fraction of a cost. I have several that shoot under 1 Moa. with the correct loads. My 300 win mag shoots .34 Moa with hornday match ammo. my 6mm Creedmoor shoots .36 Moa with hornday match ammo both rifles are savages. I haven't even tried handloads with these because they shoot so well with factory ammo. I do have a sako trg 42 in 338 lapua that shoots .75 Moa with handloads.

Agree on almost all points. I shoot a Browninf x-bolt LR and with hand reloading im usually .5-.75 MOA standard at 500.

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Bountied · Sep 1, 2021

Swaim13 said:
Are you including glass in that 2 to 3 k price? Are you looking for a stock or a chassis? Single stage or two stage trigger?

As for recommendations, for a bone stock rifle, Tikkas are really nice. The T3X CTR is a great rifle in a stock and the T3X TAC A1 is a nice chassis set up. Best value is either a ruger precision rifle or a Howa set up. If you want to spend a little more, look at the PRS production class rifles. They are 2500 and have a lot of nice features for the money.

If you arent sure of things, I would try to handle various rifles and see how they feel. Your comfort and how things feel to you will help dictate what you get.

If you want to try my rifle that I built, I am not far from you.

Out of the box the TAC A1 is a beast. I got one in 6.5CM. It's fun to shoot, easy and fairly inexpensive to reload for. The chassis lets you add all kinds of accessories easily, MLOK is pretty handy. I just wish the rail that came on it had MOA built in. I got a 30MOA mount and put a Vortex PST Gen II. I can hit a 5" piece of steel at 500yds easily. I'd say its the best bang for the buck out of the box with no trigger work or upgrades needed. The muzzle brake is a little large but the weight helps with harmonics and recoil.

Bountied · Sep 1, 2021

BigRick said:
This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. Savage makes very accurate rifles for a fraction of a cost. I have several that shoot under 1 Moa. with the correct loads. My 300 win mag shoots .34 Moa with hornday match ammo. my 6mm Creedmoor shoots .36 Moa with hornday match ammo both rifles are savages. I haven't even tried handloads with these because they shoot so well with factory ammo. I do have a sako trg 42 in 338 lapua that shoots .75 Moa with handloads.

Savages are OK, but I don't like them. I don't like the looks, the workmanship, or the triggers. They are accurate but cheap for a reason.

jimbobborg · Sep 1, 2021

If I were getting another bolt gun, this https://www.springfield-armory.com/model-2020-series-rifles/model-2020-waypoint-rifles/ would be it.

rtse4me · Sep 1, 2021

I would also recommend a Tikka CTR for a bone stock rifle. Also can't go wrong with the TAC A1 if you like the chassis, if you like more traditional stocks I would get the CTR or maybe the new UPR.
Nice thing about Tikka's is the strong aftermarket support.

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