Appleseed Patriot Pistol Preview

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  • Catch-10-22

    Appleseed Shoot Boss
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 27, 2009
    774
    PG County, MD
    Intro to Appleseed Patriot Pistol
    As some of you know, Project Appleseed is rolling out a pistol program to complement its rifle clinics. Known as Patriot Pistol, it is meant to be a foundational course in pistol marksmanship – it has a blend of defensive and slow-fire bullseye concepts without landing on either one. Maybe the best way to think about it – you need to hit your target in either, so let’s start with that!

    More broadly, we are hoping to reach more people with our message, teach a skill that is valuable to more people, and get people back that may have mastered rifle marksmanship and want to broaden their skillset.

    This program has been in development for several years and is still going through a test and evaluation process. We need to build a cadre of qualified and skilled instructors, iron out any bugs in the material, and define a challenging, yet achievable, Pistol Qualification Test (PQT) for the “Pistoleer” patch (equivalent to the Rifleman qualification on the AQT).

    My (Earned) Pistoleer Patch

    uc


    As part of that process, three Maryland instructors joined the Appleseed crew in Virginia back in August for a Train-the-Trainer event in the Shenandoah Valley area. I won’t focus on the entire course of instruction, but only on the “shooty-bits” since this is a gun review section on a gun owners forum.

    Rimfire Handguns
    The instructors were “suggested” to bring rimfire pistols to the event, though centerfire was also allowed. Why? A couple reasons:
    1. They are cheaper to run and ammunition is more plentiful (at least in an Appleseed instructor’s basement)
    2. Recoil management is simpler and we have several rapid fire stages
    3. We were tightly packed on the line (we practiced distancing other times) and this was close quarters, “brass in you face from your neighbor” rapid fire shooting (finally found a reason to LOVE masks).
    But this is not rimfire-only and folks have qualified with centerfire handguns, including 9mm compact carry pistols. And running rimfire, as we emphasize below, doesn't make you an automatic qualifier. Oh, and there is no .30 (or .38, .40, or .45) caliber rule.

    Pre-Course Preparation and Practice
    I had ordered some targets from the Appleseed Store and practiced for about a month ahead of the event. Similar to the AQT, the PQT has several stages representing different pistol skills and a similar scoring approach:

    • Stage 1: Rapid Fire and Reload (50 points)
    • Stage 2: Rapid Fire, Left and Right Target Transition, and Reload (50 points)
    • Stage 3: Slow Fire, Left Hand-only (25 points)
    • Stage 4: Slow Fire, Right Hand-only (25 points)
    • Stage 5: Slow Fire, Multiple Targets (doubled to 100 points)
    The target line is 7 yards away – seemed awful close compared to a 25m Appleseed. But some of those targets, particularly the scoring areas for 5s which are important for qualifying, are pretty small. This isn't a target where hits in the black are all you need (at least until they make the black area smaller on a future iteration).

    I am ok with a pistol. I have been to a couple classes but don’t compete in any events like steel challenge, USPSA, IDPA, etc. Maybe the best way to characterize my skill level is I am as good with a pistol as I was with a rifle before my first Appleseed – I could shoot accurately enough, but not necessarily fast under pressure. In other words, I lacked a well-honed set of skills that were advancing over time.

    In practice ahead of the event, I had been in the 194-209 range (210 is qualifying). It was frustrating because I would have a good stage 1 (49) or 5 (45, doubled to 90) and then blow another stage. I could never quite get to 210, but I was within spitting distance if I could put it all together.

    The pistols I practiced with were:

    • A Nelson Custom 1911 Conversion on a Sig 1911 frame: I got the Nelson Custom a few years ago and never really felt a lot of love for it. When I wanted to shoot a 1911, I wanted to shoot 45ACP. But, once I figured out the spring tuning and what ammo it liked (high velocity makes it happy), I found it to be very accurate, have a nice trigger, easy to load magazines, a red fiber-optic front sight that was easy to pick-up, and very reliable. Definitely a few quirks I learned about when practicing (the guide rod could come unscrewed and you would lose accuracy – who knew?), but that is part of knowing your pistol.
    • CZ 75 Kadet: I have owned this for many years and it was my primary rimfire pistol for almost all of that time. I even sent away to Tornado Technologies to have the barrel threaded. In contrast with the 1911 conversion, the Kadet lives on one of my CZ 75s nearly all the time. The pistol is highly accurate (more so than the Nelson for me) and as long as it is relatively clean and assembled right (make sure your firing pin is in the right orientation!), very reliable. It does hit a stopping point when dirty, particularly when running suppressed. Negatives are really only that the narrow slide insert is even harder to grip than a normal CZ 75, the magazines are more painful to load, and the sights are a bit harder to pick up than the fiber optic Nelson.

    My Rimfire Patriot Pistols and PQT Stages 1-2

    uc


    Honestly, it was hard to rate one pistol over the other in my hands. My scores were almost exactly the same, though each pistol excelled in different stages. Six of one, half dozen of the other, I chose the Nelson Custom but brought the CZ as a back-up.

    The Event
    Saturday was focused on instructor development and we started shooting drills Sunday morning to go through each of the skillsets required for the PQT.

    We had a large variety of rimfire pistols on the line, particularly as some folks tried different pistols over the course of the event, in addition to the Nelson Custom and Kadet Conversions:

    • Beretta Conversion
    • Browning Buckmark
    • Walther P22
    • S&W M&P 22 Full Size and Compact
    • Ruger Mk III or IV
    • Maybe 1 or 2 others I am not remembering – a few people rotated through different pistols during the event. At least one person used a 9mm M&P toward the end
    Nearly all were using iron sights but there were 2 red dots on the line, which are increasingly popular on pistols. More on that later.

    I am not going to review all of the pistols but I will provide some lessons learned:
    • I qualified on the first PQT with the Nelson Custom. I had a good Stage 1 and a stellar (for me) Stage 5 which made up for some bad shooting in other Stages. I eeked out a 210 – but it gets the same Pistoleer patch a higher score gets. And then went back to my ways of having good and garbage stages and was back just below 210.
    • The Beretta Conversion was used by a fellow Maryland Appleseed instructor. It was VERY accurate but only had one mag that would function reliably. The other two just wouldn’t work, even after cleaning. Since most of his practice had been dry fire, the shooter didn’t know about the magazine issues till the event when he started running the pistol hard. And reloads were required.
    • He switched over to my CZ Kadet and then scored a 228 and a 229 back-to-back to more than qualify. That guys knows what he is about! He said the pistol ran fine, no malfunctions once he figured out how to run it, and was very accurate. I must have run the wrong gun…
    • Some of the 22 versions of full-size pistols were giving people fits – they were reliable but not particularly accurate. It was hard to tell if it was fundamentals, the pistols being intended as reliable “plinkers” rather than precise pistols, ammunition choices, or something else entirely. No aspersions cast on the pistols or makers – just something to test in practice.
    • The dots really helped some folks. Rather than focusing on the front site and blurring the target and rear sight, with a dot you focus on the target and let your mind keep the dot centered. And with 22s, particularly those with fixed rails where the dot doesn’t move with the slide, reacquiring after so little recoil is very easy in the rapid stages. After not qualifying at a past event, one guy had a very nice Ruger rig with red dot, Tandemkross halo ring, and a few other mods. He also scored in the high 220s. His biggest issue was the safety – where most rimfire pistols don’t allow you to engage the safety when the slide is locked back (and we require it on if it can be on when the pistol is benched), the Ruger does. He sometimes forgot to click it off right away – easily fixed through training and didn’t prevent him from qualifying, but frustrating during a rapid fire stage.
    • Another woman ran a dot on her Buckmark. She didn’t qualify, but her groups were good and the pistol ran great. Other instructors said they were ordering a Buckmark to replace their guns based on how hers ran.
    Post-Shoot Next Steps
    I was very intrigued by the red dots – I had tried a couple out on centerfire pistols but had not found them to be better – just different. But, as stated above, on a 22LR with a fixed rail, maybe it would change my mind.

    PSA was having a sale on Holosun 407A3 so I decided to try one out. Only problem was, I didn’t have a way to mount it to the Nelson Custom or CZ Kadet.

    The only pistol I had with a rail was my oldest pistol, a S&W 22S that I had not fired in years – in fact, the slide had been locked closed and it turned out the firing pin was broken due to excessive dry fire by stupid younger self. I ordered some spare parts, watched some YouTube videos on disassembly (which didn’t exist back in the day), and got it running again.

    My Rimfire Patriot Pistols and PQT Stages 3-5

    uc


    I took it out for a practice session with 3 timed PQTs and the dot did not disappoint. My scores jumped to a low of 223 and a high of 228. While I still struggled for consistency in different stages, my Stage 5 scores were 96, 96, and 96.

    In fact, my final PQT of the day I only dropped 9 points total across Stages 1, 2, and 5. Unfortunately I dropped a whopping 27 on Stages 3 and 4 for my lowest ever score in those stages. Guess I need to work on my one-hand shooting more.

    I did find it harder to find the dot at times when presenting from low ready. But once I found it, it was much easier to maintain a consistent sight picture compared to iron sights. So I have been doing a lot of practice on consistent presentation in my basement.

    It isn’t cheating to use a red dot because it is not against the rules, but it feels a little like cheating. I have to say that the S&W 22S was much better than I remembered – super accurate, reliable, and easy to run, apart from its weird mid-grip magazine release.

    I have since ordered a rail for my Nelson and a milled Glock slide – both are taking a long time to delivery but I look forward to training more with red dots in the future.

    Wrap-up
    I am happy I earned my Pistoleer patch and have found the whole Patriot Pistol program to be a fun diversion from my rifle-centric Appleseed clinics to-date. It is a critical and practical skill for home defense. Our hope is that it brings more people to the program. I look forward to trying it with more pistols in the future. The program, course of instruction, and even the targets continue to get some minor tweaks. But we hope to launch if we can get support to do so.

    We now have a cadre of Maryland and Northern Virginia instructors and shoot bosses but need to find ranges that will support us for 7 yard shoots. We are willing to move the firing line down range (like we do on the long distance shoots) but in general pistol ranges have been busy. If you know of ranges that will or you are willing to help us get the program going at a range you belong to, please let me know.

    MD and VA Patriot Pistol Instructors and Pistoleers

    uc


    A final observation: the PQT is very much like the AQT – very hard for a beginner, moderately hard for an intermediately skilled person (including people who compete in different pistol disciplines), and challenging for a skilled shooter.

    But practice (live and dry fire) of good fundamentals and mastery of certain segments (even if others are lagging a bit) can get you over the hump. I would not expect to qualify the first time out - but you can if you work hard ahead of the event.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    Interesting , I think .

    So what's the actual COF ? Are 10rd strings implied ? Time limits ?
     

    Catch-10-22

    Appleseed Shoot Boss
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 27, 2009
    774
    PG County, MD
    Right now it is:

    Stage 1: 10 rounds, mags of 6 and 4, 15 seconds
    Stage 2: 10 rounds, alternating 2 rounds on each target, mags of 6 and 4, 15 seconds
    Stage 3: 5 rounds, left hand only, 15 seconds
    Stage 4: 5 rounds, right hand only, 15 seconds
    Stage 5: 10 rounds, one magazine, 4 targets (2-2-3-3), 2 minutes
     

    magwell

    Active Member
    Mar 19, 2015
    183
    I have been to multiple Appleseeds and earned my rifleman's patch. I'm very interested in the Patriot Pistol event. Thanks for the info and keep us posted please.
     

    Catch-10-22

    Appleseed Shoot Boss
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 27, 2009
    774
    PG County, MD
    Glad to see there is so much interest. We will definitely keep folks in the loop when we schedule classes. Again, if there are any folks that could get support from a range (including ranges where we already do events) for a 7 yard Patriot Pistol event, let me know. Our class sizes are going to have to be scaled to instructors (initially, we are doing no more than 2 students per instructor). We may have events in adjacent states (VA or WVA) and I will let you guys know about those as well.

    So stayed tuned!
     

    Catch-10-22

    Appleseed Shoot Boss
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 27, 2009
    774
    PG County, MD
    Maryland Appleseed Pistol Clinics in 2021

    We are very excited to announce that we will be holding our first TWO Appleseed Pistol Clinics at Anne Arundel Fish & Game in Annapolis, Maryland.

    The confirmed dates are November 20-21 and December 18-19 if you want to hold the weekends – registration should be available very soon here.

    We have more information in the main 2021 Appleseed thread. Happy to answer questions over there.
     

    Catch-10-22

    Appleseed Shoot Boss
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 27, 2009
    774
    PG County, MD
    Glad to hear this is now live. Sanners Lake should be no problem to do 7 yard shoot.

    If we could get support at Sanners to host an event (and close the pistol range for a day or two to other members) we would love to do that in 2022.

    Our two Annapolis events are already sold out, but watch the website in case anyone cancels and a spot opens back up.
     

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