ATF Coming After Firearms with Stabilizing Braces

DaemonAssassin said:

That is a load of crap and we all know it. The amnesty is to allow people the ability to register the pistol as a SBR, with zero legal ramifications. Rule 49.99 does not play a part in the amnesty the way this guy is talking about as a "trap".

FFS, are people really that afraid of looking at NFA and seeing what is and isn't legal?

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I still personally think that nothing will come of any of this. I guess we will see how well this ages.

DaemonAssassin said:

Question for you. Do you own any NFA items?

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Nope.

That may change with this impending regulation change.

BurkeM said:

Nope.

That may change with this impending regulation change.

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Without going through the process, you are spouting nonsense, due to a severe lack of knowledge. I suggest you start asking questions, instead of posting statues/opinions that aren't valid any longer.

Those that have gone through the process, already know what is going on, and are willing to give information to those who actually want it. They don't want to be "what if" questioned till the cows come home.

Furthermore, go and submit for a SBR right now, via eForms and beat the rush. There is no real reason to hold off from submitting right now.

DaemonAssassin said:

Those that have gone through the process, already know what is going on, and are willing to give information to those who actually want it.

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That’s wonderful, except last year’s experience may be completely irrelevant after the proposed regulation changes go into effect. Meanwhile, I’m learning as much as I can about the text, history and tradition involved to help prepare for future litigation.

DaemonAssassin said:

Furthermore, go and submit for a SBR right now, via eForms and beat the rush.

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You’re entitled to your opinion. As for me, I have absolutely no interest in getting an SBR. I haven’t found a compelling reason.

What I shall do is follow the ATF policies and statements and learn what I can about the proposals and work with eminently qualified legal counsel to prevent further unconstitutional infringements on the rights of other citizens.

What you don’t seem to understand is that ATF is proposing to totally change “how it was” for decades to a largely NEW process using different forms and different regulations.

Knowing how it worked in 2019 won’t predict how it will be handled in 2023.

Working together, it’s highly likely that our combined efforts can overturn bad law (the NFA, and the GCA) using the decision handed down in NYSRPA v Bruen.

BurkeM said:

Meanwhile, I’m learning as much as I can about the text, history and tradition involved to help prepare for future litigation.

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What text, history, and tradition are you referring to?

Bullfrog said:

What text, history, and tradition are you referring to?

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There is no text, history, tradition to speak of, in regards to what he is attempting to force himself into.

Without any first hand knowledge of NFA and how things are actually done, he has zero standing in this thread. That is a serious issue, with how he has been giving "advice" and "information" without knowing what he is actually talking about. All while attempting to be a keyboard lawyer.

When told to put his money where his mouth is and submit a form 1 to beat the rush, he backtracked. I wonder why that may be...

Those that have gone down the NFA path can see the bullsh!t he is spouting. Those same people have also discounted everything he said.

Being part of MSI? That doesn't mean squat unless you have firsthand knowledge of what you're talking about. If anything he put himself in a bad light and brought MSI into a discussion, when it shouldn't have been, due to him feeling that saying he was part of MSI would give him some legitimacy on here. It really doesn't give him anything on MDS.

DaemonAssassin said:

There is no text, history, tradition to speak of, in regards to what he is attempting to force himself into.

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That's what I was getting at.

The "text, history, and tradition" as described in the court decision was to refer to the writings leading to the draft of the 2nd amendment, the amendment itself, and how the right was treated in the years following adoption. I don't recall the time period that was indicated, but I'm pretty sure the NFA was well after it.

Bullfrog said:

That's what I was getting at.

The "text, history, and tradition" as described in the court decision was to refer to the writings leading to the draft of the 2nd amendment, the amendment itself, and how the right was treated in the years following adoption. I don't recall the time period that was indicated, but I'm pretty sure the NFA was well after it.

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Some people only listen when THEY are talking.

You are spot on.

Talk national registry and the 2a community is all:"registry today, confiscation tomorrow, we will not comply!"

Talk amnesty period where the 2a gets free tax stamps and the 2a community says"free tax stamps? How can I game the system to get a bunch of them free tax stamps where the AFT records all of my personal information so they know exactly where to go when they change their mind again"

YOU ARE BEING PLAYED!

Hell, you aren't just buying into a national (aka federal) registry, you're actively trying to nationally register guns that don't even exist! ("I can take multiple uppers and get 20 tax stamps!")

What do you think the AFT is gonna do when they knock on your door and you cannot produce 20 SBRs? You think they are gonna go "well shucks, we screwed up"? Or will that become evidence that you were actually trafficking in arms when those 20 registered SBRs cannot be produced? By your own voluntary registration you have created 20 SBRs. You weren't coerced, you did it willingly. And not only will YOU fry for it, it will give anecdotal evidence to the media and the gun grabbers about how widespread illegal trafficking in arms is.

IMHO every one here who has stated how they will get all of the tax stamps is the real enemy. They are willing to put their personal gain ahead of the principles the claim they have. Exactly like an anti 2a politician with an armed escort or a corporate CEO who fires an American workforce to outsource to China.....Willing to sacrifice their values to enhance their own personal gain.

The noose is ever tightening. Please don't stick your head in it.

Boats said:

How can I game the system to get a bunch of them free tax stamps where the AFT records all of my personal information so they know exactly where to go when they change their mind again"

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Just out of curiosity, do you think that the government doesn't already know about the majority of the guns you have? Unless you are making your own, they know already. I'm not sure exactly what information they gain by giving me a couple tax stamps. Every gun I've ever bought was bought legally, which means an FFL filed paper on it. Sure it's a cumbersome process for them to determine which guns I own, but they already have the information.

The other part you mentioned, about people lying and getting a bunch of stamps... don't you need to include the serial number of the lower? Seems counterproductive to get "free" stamps that you can't use because you don't have a corresponding lower to associate it with.

Also, I'm not too familiar with NFA items, but doesn't the Constitution still come into play? I don't think the police can come to your door and force you to present your firearms for inspection. That means they would need PC to believe you are committing a crime. Don't commit a crime and you don't have to worry about a search warrant.

Am I missing something here...?

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Boats said:

IMHO every one here who has stated how they will get all of the tax stamps is the real enemy. They are willing to put their personal gain ahead of the principles the claim they have.

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Again... what does this mean?

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BurkeM said:

Meanwhile, I’m learning as much as I can about the text, history and tradition involved to help prepare for future litigation.

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Per Bruen, the only text, history, and tradition that matters is pre-1870. full stop. Bruen majority debated whether the pre- or circa- 14th amendment mattered. Either way, it is around the 14th amendment ratification or earlier.

There is no pre-1870 history of banning or regulating military weapons, also full stop.

Maryland SBR law is extraordinarily confusing. SBRs are both rifles and pistols under different statutes. The statutes you are posting are not only irrelevant, confusing, and outdated for MD, they are completely irrelevant for post-Bruen litigation.

spoon059 said:

Just out of curiosity, do you think that the government doesn't already know about the majority of the guns you have? Unless you are making your own, they know already. I'm not sure exactly what information they gain by giving me a couple tax stamps. Every gun I've ever bought was bought legally, which means an FFL filed paper on it. Sure it's a cumbersome process for them to determine which guns I own, but they already have the information.

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You can't think of ANY other legal means that a person could LEGALLY aquire a firearm EVER without the government knowing about it? Think hard.

spoon059 said:

The other part you mentioned, about people lying and getting a bunch of stamps... don't you need to include the serial number of the lower? Seems counterproductive to get "free" stamps that you can't use because you don't have a corresponding lower to associate it with.

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Was going off of what some others said in this thread. What about stamping an 80%? If constructive intent is a crime (i.e. owning a SBR upper and a rifle) and this is an amnesty period, then that upper must be able to be stamped

spoon059 said:

Also, I'm not too familiar with NFA items, but doesn't the Constitution still come into play? I don't think the police can come to your door and force you to present your firearms for inspection. That means they would need PC to believe you are committing a crime. Don't commit a crime and you don't have to worry about a search warrant.

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That hasn't stopped the AFT from knocking on the door of someone who: buys too many guns legally withing an arbitrary timeframe. Or buys too many oil filters, for example.

spoon059 said:

Am I missing something here...?

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Yes.

I know I am way out there, but I don't see brace registration amnesty happening. Lots of proposals get put into budgets as trial balloons. No way ATF grants amnesty for tens of millions of braced pistols.

spoon059 said:

Again... what does this mean?

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My interpretation, keep your braces on your guns and F' the AFT

camo556 said:

I know I am way out there, but I don't see brace registration amnesty happening. Lots of proposals get put into budgets as trial balloons. No way ATF grants amnesty for tens of millions of braced pistols.

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Agreed

If anything, it's just a ploy to 'look inside your gun safe'.

I'm reminded of the scene from "The Killing Fields" where, in the re-education camps, people were coaxed to confess to their sins and Ankar will forgive them. Well, those naive souls ended up in the field of skulls.

camo556 said:

Per Bruen, the only text, history, and tradition that matters is pre-1870. full stop. Bruen majority debated whether the pre- or circa- 14th amendment mattered. Either way, it is around the 14th amendment ratification or earlier.

There is no pre-1870 history of banning or regulating military weapons, also full stop.

Maryland SBR law is extraordinarily confusing. SBRs are both rifles and pistols under different statutes. The statutes you are posting are not only irrelevant, confusing, and outdated for MD, they are completely irrelevant for post-Bruen litigation.

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We agree. MD has no authority (per SCOTUS) to do what they have been doing for decades.

Bullfrog said:

What text, history, and tradition are you referring to?

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The lack of any regulations or law on barrel length, magazines, pistol grips, and “shoulder thingies that go up.”

Boats said:

You can't think of ANY other legal means that a person could LEGALLY aquire a firearm EVER without the government knowing about it? Think hard.

Was going off of what some others said in this thread. What about stamping an 80%? If constructive intent is a crime (i.e. owning a SBR upper and a rifle) and this is an amnesty period, then that upper must be able to be stamped

That hasn't stopped the AFT from knocking on the door of someone who: buys too many guns legally withing an arbitrary timeframe. Or buys too many oil filters, for example.

Yes.

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#1 Every single gun that *** I *** have bought has been purchased from an FFL and the gov't already knows. You said, "get a bunch of them free tax stamps where the AFT records all of my personal information so they know exactly where to go when they change their mind again." The gov't already knows exactly what I have. They already know my information. What does acquiring a "free" tax stamp give them that they don't already have? Again, I am speaking about myself and myself only. I don't particularly care what others intend to do.

#2 I'm not sure I follow where you are going. I know of nothing that requires the upper to be stamped... it is the LOWER that is considered the regulated firearm. But again, *** I *** don't have any 80% lowers, so this concern doesn't affect me. Your comment was that I am "the enemy" for considering getting a tax stamp.

#3 Anyone can come knock on anyone's door and ask any questions they want. I am under no obligation to speak with them or supply anything. I intend to do things legally, so I am not concerned with the ATF or locals coming and asking questions... but I also will not allow a fishing expedition at my house.

#4 Cute... you state that I am missing something but don't indicate what I am missing. If you are trying to be helpful and educate, you're doing it wrong. If you are trying to be a smartalec... you're doing great.

Your statement was a blanket statement that anyone that gets a stamp is a fool and an enemy. Your statement was a blanket statement that anyone complying with this was giving the gov't personal information. My question was simple, yet unanswered by you...

I've bought all guns through FFLs and filled out Maryland's paperwork. They already know what I have. They already know where I live. I also have a form 4 suppressor application on file. What personal information would I possibly be providing to them that they don't already have???

If the ATF were to go through with this and provide a tax stamp, how am I the "enemy" if I choose to accept it?

I'm not asking for your fringe scenarios. You made broad brush statements that NOBODY should do it, I am questioning that statement. If **YOU** chose not to apply, good for you. But why am ** I ** a horrible person if I chose to apply?

Uppers can be stamped.