Black powder hypothetical:

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  • Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,278
    HoCo
    Funny enough, I was just reading up on that the other day. The name 30-30 refers to .30 caliber propelled by roughly .30 grains of what was, at the time, a brand-new technology called "smokeless powder."

    I was thinking it was more along the lines of a date or whatnot, which is why that info stuck.


    As to the question of why I think the Gov't would "let us" have black powder, it's not about letting, it's about the fact that we pretty much have the ability to make it at home from (fairly) common ingredients. Smokeless, not so much.

    In regards to why the D's would "let" us have percussion caps, it's kind of the same thing. Percussion caps can be made from some fairly common items as well and it wouldn't take much to modify on-hand brass to accept them in the place of modern smokeless primers.

    As Doctor_M said, it's never a bad idea to have a plan B, C, D..... etc.

    I'm actually really tempted to get a Rem Model 8 and try some BP and cast lead loads to see how it goes now.

    Ahh, cause lawmakers make laws that make sense LOL
    they will simply do the opposite of what we want to the extent that they think they can and say "its for the children"
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    Ahh, cause lawmakers make laws that make sense LOL
    they will simply do the opposite of what we want to the extent that they think they can and say "its for the children"

    So, the point here (that I feel is being missed) is that even if they made percussion caps and BP illegal, they are things that you could make at home whereas smokeless powder and modern primers are not.
     

    DutchV

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 8, 2012
    4,702
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK! WRONG!

    .30-30 was not a BP cartridge but rather one the first smokeless cartridges. The parent round .38-55 was BP.

    Okay, correct - yes, I looked.

    There are .30-30 black powder recipes, though, for desperate times.
     

    GutPile

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 4, 2016
    3,218
    It won't matter. If the radicals succeed, they'll plunge us into a new Dark Age anyway.
    This. It would be full on mad max time. Stock up on leather and shoulder pads. Time to wage war on the road for a roll of toilet paper!
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    The advent of smokeless powders is what allowed advancements to occur with R&D involved with advancements in repeating arms.
    The avoidance of fouling was a huge leap forward.
    Right around the same period jacketed bullets began to appear particularly spitzers as well as advancements in metallurgy for arms manufacture.
    I think the 7x57 was the first smokeless round to be accepted by a military establishment for widespread use although the French were or may have actually been the first.
    .30 Army was the first cartridge to be accepted by the US for a smokeless powder round in 1892 with the 7.65 and 7x57 nearly at the same interval.
     

    Pale Ryder

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 12, 2009
    6,232
    Millersville
    So, the point here (that I feel is being missed) is that even if they made percussion caps and BP illegal, they are things that you could make at home whereas smokeless powder and modern primers are not.

    If they make all that illegal, where are you going to play with your homemade stuff. Not quite like drinking in a speak easy or making your own bathtub gin.
    Why not just keep a few hundred rounds of your HD ammo in reserves?
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    If they make all that illegal, where are you going to play with your homemade stuff. Not quite like drinking in a speak easy or making your own bathtub gin.
    Why not just keep a few hundred rounds of your HD ammo in reserves?

    At that point, it's less play and more partisan action should it come to it.

    It's all a hypothetical though.

    There are a couple of videos of guys firing A5s on BP loads, seem to work pretty well. One used plastic or paper (can't tell from the video) and the other used brass shells.



    It's an interesting "what if" exercise. I'm an engineering nerd when it comes to firearms.
     

    Art3

    Eqinsu Ocha
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2015
    13,267
    Harford County
    If it comes to that scenario, whatever crude projectile weapon you could come up with (BP, compressed air...oxy-acetylene? :shrug: ) would be the modern equivalent of the WWII Liberator: used once to acquire more effective weapons from your oppressors.
     

    Jerry M

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2007
    1,688
    Glen Burnie MD
    Some comments
    As stated above .30-30 was never factory loaded with black powder.
    I would really like to see the law that references Gating Guns as semi-auto.
    BP may work one time in a .44 Mag Ruger, but you would never be able to clean the gas system properly.

    I can't imagine a situation where guns would be outlawed and people making their own black powder for clandestine shooting?

    Most likely a huge new smuggling enterprise would spring forth just like in prohibition and currently with illegal drugs. But instead of alcohol or drugs, shipping containers of AK's and ammo from China, South Africa, Cuba, Russia & Middle-east etc.
     

    jjjefferson

    Member
    Aug 22, 2011
    21
    Laurel, MD
    I was under the impression that 30-30 was originally BP and that the 32 Winchester Special was the original smokeless powder cartridge??

    No, .32 Win Spl was originally designed to handle BP and Smokeless. The 1:16 twist was to handle lead bullets and not foul as much when BP was used.

    That is my "go to" gun should I run down do nothing on everything else. Of course the .321 only comes in a couple of sizes on of the reasons the cartridge never took off...and the 30-30 did.
     

    Allen65

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 29, 2013
    7,063
    Anne Arundel County
    I would really like to see the law that references Gating Guns as semi-auto.

    You won't find it. In our legal system, "That which is not illegal, is legal." The definition of full auto in law is a firearm that fires multiple rounds from a single trigger pull. A manual Gatling requires constant turning of the crank to fire, hence it does not meet the definition of a full auto firearm, and so doesn't fall under NFA legal restrictions. Add an electric motor to replace the hand crank, you now own a machine gun, with all the legal restrictions that come with it.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,876
    The .30-30 was the first Sporting Ctg * Designed * on purpose for Smokeless . Could somebody have mfg a few boxes of .30-30 BP circa 1895 for percieved market of people not trusting new fangled powders ? Not absolutely impossible . The .32 Win Spl was designed to be a near clone of .30-30 , but more suitable for BP .

    Yes , 8mm Lebel was first Smokeless ctg . But the 7mm Mauser does get mention in its own right , for being the first widespread ctg to kick up to a new level of flat trajectory . ( Which in turn probably inspired the plethora of 6.5mm Military ctg that took the concept another step farther .


    ************************

    But at the original line of enquiry ; Black Powder for autoloading firearms rounds off to not possible . Yes , JMB , etc experemented earlier , but the first Practical rock & roll was the circa 1888 Maxim gun , that used Cordite loaded .303 , with Cordite as the necessary precursor .
     

    Allen65

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 29, 2013
    7,063
    Anne Arundel County
    But at the original line of enquiry ; Black Powder for autoloading firearms rounds off to not possible . Yes , JMB , etc experimented earlier , but the first Practical rock & roll was the circa 1888 Maxim gun , that used Cordite loaded .303 , with Cordite as the necessary precursor .

    Yup, Maxim was pretty much the first practical one. I was thinking a bit about the original problem, and any sort of gas system would get quickly fouled with BP. But a gun designed with a delayed blowback or long recoil mechanism might work, if you used paper-patched bullets to keep the bore clean and lubricated, especially in the throat where fouling might prevent proper seating.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,876
    They fouled quickly also . It might be a matter of degree ,say 25 rounds vs 5 rounds , but still rounds off to ain't gonna work .
     

    Harrys

    Short Round
    Jul 12, 2014
    3,361
    SOMD
    I was originally going to put this in gunsmithing, but felt it actually fit in better here.

    Here's the thought. If we see Democrat wins in both the oval office and both houses of congress and the continued slide towards Marxism, inevitably our 2A rights will continue to be curtailed. If that happens, eventually we'll see our laws get to the point where even reloading your own ammo will become prohibitive due to various permitting hurdles, etc. Or, let's say that smokeless powder manufacturers can no longer sell to the public and we're relegated to black powder only, what could conceivably be done to ensure civilian access to semi-automatic weapons under this scheme? I would think that primers would still be available in some form, even if just #10 caps or the like, and BP can be manufactured in the home in a pinch.

    I've seen YouTube videos of guys loading BP for ARs, the SKS, AK47s, etc. and they all foul to the point of being impossible to use after a maximum of 10 shots. And while lever action and bolt-action guns can certainly use BP load to greater effect, I wouldn't want to find myself in a situation where a .30-30 or Mosin Nagant were my defensive weapons.

    Thinking about this last night, the solution to me seems to be long-recoil operation. No gas system to foul. The chamber is locked until almost all residue is pushed forward meaning less fouling of the breech, chamber, and throat, and it's an older system that was popular when BP loads were still very representative of the marketplace.

    Something like the Remington 8 or 81 would seem to fit the bill if this is the case.

    Anyone have any thoughts? And, if some enterprising company were to make an effective BP semi-auto, do you think folks of a similar "Be Prepared" mind-set would go for it?

    30-30 and 45-70 were black powder originally. 45-70 meant 45 caliber and 70 grains of black powder. I have loaded the 45-70 in black powder, it is not like loading modern shells. You need a long drop tube and then wadding after the powder and finally load the projectile. I have loaded theses for shooting in actual antique rifles for competition shooting. Not like the movies, after 3 shots you better clean your barrel. Black powder is really dirty.
     

    toppkatt

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 22, 2017
    1,185
    30-30 and 45-70 were black powder originally. 45-70 meant 45 caliber and 70 grains of black powder. I have loaded the 45-70 in black powder, it is not like loading modern shells. You need a long drop tube and then wadding after the powder and finally load the projectile. I have loaded theses for shooting in actual antique rifles for competition shooting. Not like the movies, after 3 shots you better clean your barrel. Black powder is really dirty.
    Incorrect. It was the first successful sporting cartridge designed to use the then new smokeless powders. Not sure where people are getting the 'originally a black powder cartridge' info on the .30-30 cartridge, other than the time frame in which it was designed and brought to market.
    You are correct as to the nomenclature of the .45-70 cartridge, however, I have shot the .45-70 with black powder loads from my 1886 Winchester (Manf. in 1887) and I shot considerably more than 3 rounds before it required cleaning. The match required 20 rounds and the rifle didn't get cleaned until after the match was over. I still have a box of original .45-70 black powder loads from back in the day with balloon web and lead bullets. Thanks to my grandfather for both the rifle and ammunition.
     
    Last edited:

    toppkatt

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 22, 2017
    1,185
    Some comments
    ...I would really like to see the law that references Gating Guns as semi-auto.

    As was previously posted (Allen65, post #33), you won't find this in the Maryland Code. When I was looking at them I called Firearms Licensing Division and that is what they told me. Also previously posted (ibid/idem), the designation of 'semi-auto' is due to the mechanism of action of the firearm. Each shot fired requires the manual interaction of the shooter with the firearm to successfully continue to fire (e.g. one shot for each movement of the trigger (this includes binary triggers), no movement (pull the crank in this case) no further shots released).
     

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