MD laws when making an SBR

lazarus · Feb 15, 2021

Pinecone said:
Standard AR parts require a 10.5" barrel to make 29".

You may have to get them info on how you were going to do it with a 9.75" barrel.

That was my thought also. You typically can't get >29" without going to some lengths (see what I did there? :lol2:

) on the stock. Any chance OP had a math error and the ATF noticed that?

Also for the OP, yes, suppressors are generally considered flash suppressors under the law.

SkiPatrolDude · Feb 15, 2021

Pinecone said:
Standard AR parts require a 10.5" barrel to make 29".

You may have to get them info on how you were going to do it with a 9.75" barrel.

I got there with a 10.3, but only with the right stock configuration. On a standard carbine buffer the B5 systems SOPMOD stock, fully extended, gets you to 29.2. My form 1 was approved in 19 days.

Another way to extend the OAL would be to use a VLTOR A5 buffer system, which would buy you an extra 3/4 of an inch.

psybersapien · Feb 15, 2021

Pinecone said:
Standard AR parts require a 10.5" barrel to make 29".

You may have to get them info on how you were going to do it with a 9.75" barrel.

Based on further investigation, I think it was the theoretical OAL based on the barrel length and, as you point out, standard AR parts.
How do I give the ATF more info on a Form 1 to make an SBR? Do I have wait for the Form 1 disapproval then appeal?

I've also been doing more investigation in preparation for my next Form 1 to make an SBR with an even smaller barrel length, 8.5 inches.
I used the ATF technique of barrel length measurement and used a rod to measure from the muzzle to the bolt face in battery. I tried it on all my AR's and found the measurement is the always the same as measuring from the muzzle to the gap between the hand-guard and the receiver.
Given the 29" minimum, if I subtract 8.5 inches then I have 20.5 inches to account for.
The parts I plan to use (or not use) to account for the 20.5" are the following:
* Law folding adapter; +1.5" LOP (https://www.lawtactical.com/ar_folding_stock_adapter_gen_3_m_p/99312.htm)
* Tromix extended buffer tube; +1.5" LOP (https://tromix.com/product/ar-15-extended-buffer-tube-1-5-carbine-stock-copy/)
* Daniel Defense collapsible stock w/thicker convex buttpad
* I do not plan to use a flash hider or suppressor (for legal reasons given the folder)

Using a measurement on my other AR's with no folder, a standard buffer extension and the same Daniel Defense stock configuration I get 18.5". With an 8.5" barrel I get 27".

27" + 1.5" (folder) + 1.5" (extended buffer tube) = 30".

I don't think I'm off by an entire inch so if the actual build comes between 29" - 30" then I'll report back to the ATF.

Saberwalk · Apr 15, 2021

That's odd. On the approved form 1 for my Scorpion EVO, I indicated the barrel was 7.72" and SBR OAL would be 29" and there does not appear to have beeb an issue.

DaemonAssassin · Apr 15, 2021

psybersapien said:
Based on further investigation, I think it was the theoretical OAL based on the barrel length and, as you point out, standard AR parts.
How do I give the ATF more info on a Form 1 to make an SBR? Do I have wait for the Form 1 disapproval then appeal?

I've also been doing more investigation in preparation for my next Form 1 to make an SBR with an even smaller barrel length, 8.5 inches.
I used the ATF technique of barrel length measurement and used a rod to measure from the muzzle to the bolt face in battery. I tried it on all my AR's and found the measurement is the always the same as measuring from the muzzle to the gap between the hand-guard and the receiver.
Given the 29" minimum, if I subtract 8.5 inches then I have 20.5 inches to account for.
The parts I plan to use (or not use) to account for the 20.5" are the following:
* Law folding adapter; +1.5" LOP (https://www.lawtactical.com/ar_folding_stock_adapter_gen_3_m_p/99312.htm)
* Tromix extended buffer tube; +1.5" LOP (https://tromix.com/product/ar-15-extended-buffer-tube-1-5-carbine-stock-copy/)
* Daniel Defense collapsible stock w/thicker convex buttpad
* I do not plan to use a flash hider or suppressor (for legal reasons given the folder)

Using a measurement on my other AR's with no folder, a standard buffer extension and the same Daniel Defense stock configuration I get 18.5". With an 8.5" barrel I get 27".

27" + 1.5" (folder) + 1.5" (extended buffer tube) = 30".

I don't think I'm off by an entire inch so if the actual build comes between 29" - 30" then I'll report back to the ATF.

You do understand that copycat provisions do not apply to SBR's, right?

atblis · Apr 15, 2021

They know the numbers for a standard AR15.

bwags123 · Apr 15, 2021

Does it matter if the receiver is a pre “13”. Or would it have had to be an sbr prior to that date?

Pinecone · Apr 15, 2021

DaemonAssassin said:
You do understand that copycat provisions do not apply to SBR's, right?

The 29" requirement does.

Pinecone · Apr 15, 2021

bwags123 said:
Does it matter if the receiver is a pre “13”. Or would it have had to be an sbr prior to that date?

Has to have been an SBR before they changed the requirements.

Because, according to the BATF, when you do a Form 1 and make a firearm an SBR, you are manufacturing that SBR on that date.

DaemonAssassin · Apr 15, 2021

Pinecone said:
The 29" requirement does.

Again I said "COPYCAT PROVISIONS". The 29" is codified in the law, but features are exempt if it is a SBR.

Pinecone · Apr 17, 2021

DaemonAssassin said:
Again I said "COPYCAT PROVISIONS". The 29" is codified in the law, but features are exempt if it is a SBR.

29" is part of the copy cat requirements.

Pinecone · Apr 17, 2021

DaemonAssassin said:
Again I said "COPYCAT PROVISIONS". The 29" is codified in the law, but features are exempt if it is a SBR.

29" is part of the copy cat requirements.

(E) (1) “COPYCAT WEAPON” MEANS:

(I) A SEMIAUTOMATIC CENTERFIRE RIFLE THAT CAN ACCEPT A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE AND HAS ANY TWO OF THE FOLLOWING:

1. A FOLDING STOCK;
2. A GRENADE LAUNCHER OR FLARE LAUNCHER; OR
3. A FLASH SUPPRESSOR; OR

(II) A SEMIAUTOMATIC CENTERFIRE RIFLE THAT HAS A
FIXED MAGAZINE WITH THE CAPACITY TO ACCEPT MORE THAN 10 ROUNDS;

(III) A SEMIAUTOMATIC CENTERFIRE RIFLE THAT HAS AN
OVERALL LENGTH OF LESS THAN 29 INCHES;

DaemonAssassin · Apr 17, 2021

Pinecone said:
29" is part of the copy cat requirements.

Oh, FFS! I said that the 29" is codified in law, but the features are exempt if it is a SBR. Read it again.

jcutonilli · Apr 17, 2021

DaemonAssassin said:
Oh, FFS! I said that the 29" is codified in law, but the features are exempt if it is a SBR. Read it again.

One can reread the requirements as many times as they want. It does not change the fact that Criminal Law Title 4 Subtitle 3 (subtitle that defines the "copycat weapon" and prohibits its possession) does not provide a definition of what a rifle means. I get that SBRs are defined as handguns in other subtitles (eg Criminal Law Title 4 Subtitle 2), but those definitions generally do not apply outside those specific subtitles.

The R in SBR means rifle so when you see the term rifle in the definition of a "copycat weapon" it includes SBRs because they are rifles. The 29" requirement only applies to semiautomatic centerfire rifles so not all SBRs need to meet the 29" requirement. Only those SBRs that are semiautomatic centerfire rifles need to meet the requirement. Rimfire and non-semiautomatic SBRs do not need to meet the 29" requirement.

outrider58 · Apr 17, 2021

bwags123 said:
Does it matter if the receiver is a pre “13”. Or would it have had to be an sbr prior to that date?

No. It does not matter.

outrider58 · Apr 17, 2021

(E) (1) “COPYCAT WEAPON” MEANS:

(I) A SEMIAUTOMATIC CENTERFIRE RIFLE THAT CAN ACCEPT A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE AND HAS ANY TWO OF THE FOLLOWING:

1. A FOLDING STOCK;
2. A GRENADE LAUNCHER OR FLARE LAUNCHER; OR
3. A FLASH SUPPRESSOR; OR

(II) A SEMIAUTOMATIC CENTERFIRE RIFLE THAT HAS A
FIXED MAGAZINE WITH THE CAPACITY TO ACCEPT MORE THAN 10 ROUNDS;

(III) A SEMIAUTOMATIC CENTERFIRE RIFLE THAT HAS AN
OVERALL LENGTH OF LESS THAN 29 INCHES;

So would a fully automatic SBR be exempt from this requirement? :rolleyes:

jcutonilli · Apr 17, 2021

outrider58 said:
So would a fully automatic SBR be exempt from this requirement?

I would say a fully automatic SBR would not meet the definition of a "copycat weapon" you cited although a select fire version could be ambiguous due to the ability to fire semiautomatically.

outrider58 · Apr 17, 2021

jcutonilli said:
I would say a fully automatic SBR would not meet the definition of a "copycat weapon" you cited although a select fire version could be ambiguous due to the ability to fire semiautomatically.

Then let us assume for a moment I was speaking of a select fire SBR.

Would that not be just as ambiguous as an SBR, as SBRs were never mentioned directly?

yellow97tt6spd · Apr 17, 2021

I feel dense, but I still do not understand the nuances of what SBRing a weapon now allows, and doesn’t allow. I know that the weapon needs to be over 29”, but does it need to meet any other metrics?

Two different cases I’m personally interested in are...

- Standard rifle is Form 1ed, and measures over 29”. Can it now be run with a folding stock, grenade launcher, and/ or a flash hider (or suppressor)?

- Could a Sig Virtus “Pistol” be Form 1ed, if over 29” and run as a (short barreled) rifle?.. even though the rifle variant of the Sig Virtus is outright outlawed?

Finally, since were asking about odd idiosyncrasies, I’ve seen people say that suppressors count as a flash hider, since to some degree they do hide flash, but I’ve seen others say that flash suppressor is do not count as a flash hider. Whet is the actual verbiage on suppressors, relevant to counting as a flash hider?

I have nine stamps, but have held off on picking up more rifle hosts, for fear of running afoul of the post sb281 rules. Really appreciate the info!

Pinecone · Apr 17, 2021

DaemonAssassin said:
Oh, FFS! I said that the 29" is codified in law, but the features are exempt if it is a SBR. Read it again.

Where does it say an SBR is exempt?

I quoted the law.

MD laws when making an SBR

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