Baffle stack vs monocore/solid weld design

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  • rockstarr

    Major Deplorable
    Feb 25, 2013
    4,592
    The Bolshevik Lands
    What are the advantages of one of these to the the other ? Aside from generally needing a sonic cleaner for mono cores vs baffle stacks being serviceable.
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    What are the advantages of one of these to the the other ? Aside from generally needing a sonic cleaner for mono cores vs baffle stacks being serviceable.

    You need a sonic for both but you can put cups into a pin tumbler, which I think is an advantage.
    Each has their advantages and disadvantages.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    All calibers.

    As example, dead air has mostly monocore/solidwelds

    Griffin has more baffle stack suppressors.

    I’m curious to know the pro and cons of why go with one design over the other.

    I am sure each has its advantages.

    The best in terms of sound reduction are double clipped baffles.
     

    woodline

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2017
    1,947
    All calibers.

    As example, dead air has mostly monocore/solidwelds

    Griffin has more baffle stack suppressors.

    I’m curious to know the pro and cons of why go with one design over the other.

    I am sure each has its advantages.
    Dead Air does not sell any monocore products that I’m aware of. A Welded baffle stack (tubeless or not) is not the same thing as a monocore design. Probably the most popular company that specializes in monocore designs is Liberty. There are other companies that do it (many who weld the monocore in the tube so one wouldn’t necessarily notice it)

    The two most common complaints with monocore designs are: more prone to first round pop, and somewhat lesser performance ceiling than more traditional baffle stack designs. Oh and they can be a pain in the rear to disassemble and clean. That said one of the 13 or 14 suppressors I own is a Liberty Cosmic, and it sounds pretty good. No major complaints, especially for what I paid for it.
     

    woodline

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2017
    1,947
    13 or 14? You are my hero. :)
    The first 8 or so were purchased when the major manufacturers were offering insane discounts due to everyone holding out for HPA. So really it’s more like I bought 3 or 4 at full price and got 4 or 5 for free. But the ATF sure has gotten their pound of flesh out of me.

    The rest have been purchased due to sales and lack of personal discipline.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    They all have their place, and benefits/ issues

    Monocore- simple and easy to disassemble and clean, can just use round brushes from the side. Best for 22s and integrally suppressed centerfire where the outer tube can just slide off, and the stack is serviceable still attatched to the barrel(can be integral or welded on a short barre for 16" lengths). Downside in 22s is they can get stuck easy without a shield to keep the tube from getting fouled. More internal volume can mean good performance, but also more first round pop. Limited by machining tech to relatively simple shapes. There are some that are welded, IMO it negates the only real benefits the design has currently.

    Serviceable baffle stack- works on everything, 22, pistol cal, and rifle cal. They are easily adapted to modular designs as the mount, cap, tube, and baffles are usually separate components. Cleaning and dissasembly can be simple or involved. Depending on design the baffles may be able to rotate and can cause a POI shift. You can have complex circular baffles for excellent performance, or tuned for suppression vs backpressure. They can click together to shield the outer tube from fouling, really good feature on 22s. Many of the downsides like complexity, stuck baffles, and unscrewing apart while shooting can be solved with good designs, but they still tend to be heavy with less internal volume. Some older designs were welded, but the welds can be removed from the tube, and it can be made serviceable in some cases.

    Tubeless- using baffles without an outer tube cuts weight, and allows more internal volume, it can still be modular, especially with a serviceable can where baffles simply screw together in any length. The main issue is cleaning, where screw-together baffles have the outer finish on them, and can get beat up when cleaning. They also need to be either screwed together baffle by baffle, adding a lot of weight, complexity, and creating several spots that can come apart when shooting. Some 22s feature this design, but the vast majority are welded rifle-cal cans.

    Welded vs serviceable is usually a matter of need, 22s NEED to be serviceable, as the round is filthy. High pressure rifle cals don't need to be serviceable as the muzzle blast keeps breaking up fouling keeping it from building up. Pistol cans can be either-or, cast bullets and light loads can get a can dirty, but generally FMJ and higher velocity stay pretty clean. The best feature of a welded can is that it doesn't come apart, can still have modular mounts and end caps, even modular sections, no shift in POI, only a point or two where it could come apart while shooting(or none with 1 piece can/ fixed mount). The worst feature is also that it can't come apart, so no easy cleaning, and if damaged, better chance of replacement or cutting/rewelding for repairs, not simply swapping components. There are also baffle-less designs like Oss that use a relatively thin outer core to create turbulence without much backpressure. There are also 3D printed metal designs like Sig's new models that promise insanely intricate structures not machinable in any other way that could give performance never seen before, and radically different designs without expensive machining.

    IMO the best depends on application. 22=serviceable baffles, pistol=serviceable baffles, rifle-welded tubeless, integral=monocore, but with new 3D printed and baffle-less designs improving, and people dumping money into the suppressor industry, that will probably change.
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    They all have their place, and benefits/ issues

    Monocore- simple and easy to disassemble and clean, can just use round brushes from the side. Best for 22s and integrally suppressed centerfire where the outer tube can just slide off, and the stack is serviceable still attatched to the barrel(can be integral or welded on a short barre for 16" lengths). Downside in 22s is they can get stuck easy without a shield to keep the tube from getting fouled. More internal volume can mean good performance, but also more first round pop. Limited by machining tech to relatively simple shapes. There are some that are welded, IMO it negates the only real benefits the design has currently.

    Serviceable baffle stack- works on everything, 22, pistol cal, and rifle cal. They are easily adapted to modular designs as the mount, cap, tube, and baffles are usually separate components. Cleaning and dissasembly can be simple or involved. Depending on design the baffles may be able to rotate and can cause a POI shift. You can have complex circular baffles for excellent performance, or tuned for suppression vs backpressure. They can click together to shield the outer tube from fouling, really good feature on 22s. Many of the downsides like complexity, stuck baffles, and unscrewing apart while shooting can be solved with good designs, but they still tend to be heavy with less internal volume. Some older designs were welded, but the welds can be removed from the tube, and it can be made serviceable in some cases.

    Tubeless- using baffles without an outer tube cuts weight, and allows more internal volume, it can still be modular, especially with a serviceable can where baffles simply screw together in any length. The main issue is cleaning, where screw-together baffles have the outer finish on them, and can get beat up when cleaning. They also need to be either screwed together baffle by baffle, adding a lot of weight, complexity, and creating several spots that can come apart when shooting. Some 22s feature this design, but the vast majority are welded rifle-cal cans.

    Welded vs serviceable is usually a matter of need, 22s NEED to be serviceable, as the round is filthy. High pressure rifle cals don't need to be serviceable as the muzzle blast keeps breaking up fouling keeping it from building up. Pistol cans can be either-or, cast bullets and light loads can get a can dirty, but generally FMJ and higher velocity stay pretty clean. The best feature of a welded can is that it doesn't come apart, can still have modular mounts and end caps, even modular sections, no shift in POI, only a point or two where it could come apart while shooting(or none with 1 piece can/ fixed mount). The worst feature is also that it can't come apart, so no easy cleaning, and if damaged, better chance of replacement or cutting/rewelding for repairs, not simply swapping components. There are also baffle-less designs like Oss that use a relatively thin outer core to create turbulence without much backpressure. There are also 3D printed metal designs like Sig's new models that promise insanely intricate structures not machinable in any other way that could give performance never seen before, and radically different designs without expensive machining.

    IMO the best depends on application. 22=serviceable baffles, pistol=serviceable baffles, rifle-welded tubeless, integral=monocore, but with new 3D printed and baffle-less designs improving, and people dumping money into the suppressor industry, that will probably change.

    Pretty much this^^^

    It's like holding up three of your fingers and trying to pick the best finger of the three.
     

    JohnnyE

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 18, 2013
    9,466
    MoCo
    They all have their place, and benefits/ issues

    Monocore- simple and easy to disassemble and clean, can just use round brushes from the side. Best for 22s and integrally suppressed centerfire where the outer tube can just slide off, and the stack is serviceable still attatched to the barrel(can be integral or welded on a short barre for 16" lengths). Downside in 22s is they can get stuck easy without a shield to keep the tube from getting fouled. More internal volume can mean good performance, but also more first round pop. Limited by machining tech to relatively simple shapes. There are some that are welded, IMO it negates the only real benefits the design has currently.

    Serviceable baffle stack- works on everything, 22, pistol cal, and rifle cal. They are easily adapted to modular designs as the mount, cap, tube, and baffles are usually separate components. Cleaning and dissasembly can be simple or involved. Depending on design the baffles may be able to rotate and can cause a POI shift. You can have complex circular baffles for excellent performance, or tuned for suppression vs backpressure. They can click together to shield the outer tube from fouling, really good feature on 22s. Many of the downsides like complexity, stuck baffles, and unscrewing apart while shooting can be solved with good designs, but they still tend to be heavy with less internal volume. Some older designs were welded, but the welds can be removed from the tube, and it can be made serviceable in some cases.

    Tubeless- using baffles without an outer tube cuts weight, and allows more internal volume, it can still be modular, especially with a serviceable can where baffles simply screw together in any length. The main issue is cleaning, where screw-together baffles have the outer finish on them, and can get beat up when cleaning. They also need to be either screwed together baffle by baffle, adding a lot of weight, complexity, and creating several spots that can come apart when shooting. Some 22s feature this design, but the vast majority are welded rifle-cal cans.

    Welded vs serviceable is usually a matter of need, 22s NEED to be serviceable, as the round is filthy. High pressure rifle cals don't need to be serviceable as the muzzle blast keeps breaking up fouling keeping it from building up. Pistol cans can be either-or, cast bullets and light loads can get a can dirty, but generally FMJ and higher velocity stay pretty clean. The best feature of a welded can is that it doesn't come apart, can still have modular mounts and end caps, even modular sections, no shift in POI, only a point or two where it could come apart while shooting(or none with 1 piece can/ fixed mount). The worst feature is also that it can't come apart, so no easy cleaning, and if damaged, better chance of replacement or cutting/rewelding for repairs, not simply swapping components. There are also baffle-less designs like Oss that use a relatively thin outer core to create turbulence without much backpressure. There are also 3D printed metal designs like Sig's new models that promise insanely intricate structures not machinable in any other way that could give performance never seen before, and radically different designs without expensive machining.

    IMO the best depends on application. 22=serviceable baffles, pistol=serviceable baffles, rifle-welded tubeless, integral=monocore, but with new 3D printed and baffle-less designs improving, and people dumping money into the suppressor industry, that will probably change.

    Pretty much this^^^

    It's like holding up three of your fingers and trying to pick the best finger of the three.

    Out58...Ha ha!

    I dealt with a new-to-me monocore issue I have to pass along. Sorry for the lesson, but "casual" maintenance was almost my undoing.

    I shot my aftermarket suppressed Ruger 10/22 and let it sit for a few weeks before paying it any mind. As a result, I almost tore the aluminum core apart trying to remove it from the steel tube. The problem was galvanic corrosion.

    Having worked on boats in salt water for over thirty years teaches you a few things. Galvanic corrosion is something you must pay attention to.

    Aluminum and steel do not play nice together. Aluminum (very negative on the galvanic scale) sacrifices itself when it is in contact with a more positive metal, like steel, when moisture is present. Moisture is one of the products of burning power, so all the ingredients were there. Add in the carbon residue from burned powder (at the absolute extreme positive end of the galvanic table), and aluminum (near the negative end), plus the moisture and acidic products of combustion, and you have the makings of a REAL problem.

    What happened? My aluminum monocore corroded (creating aluminum oxide, an abrasive in sandpaper) locking it to the steel tube. Holy crap!

    What to do?

    I used somewhat serious force to coax the core out. Nothing broke. What a relief.

    After thoroughly cleaning everything, I applied a ceramic brake lube to everything upon reassembly. Not a graphite, copper, or nickel based anti-seize mind you, since they all eat aluminum. I used a ceramic brake lube. Permatex makes one.

    I now tear everything apart when I get home from the range, which stops the galvanic corrosion. The monocore slides out with minimal effort. At least nothing is stuck together now.
     

    calicojack

    American Sporting Rifle
    MDS Supporter
    May 29, 2018
    5,348
    Cuba on the Chesapeake
    After thoroughly cleaning everything, I applied a ceramic brake lube to everything upon reassembly. Not a graphite, copper, or nickel based anti-seize mind you, since they all eat aluminum.

    Ok - you are telling me that anti-seize compounds like (e.g.) Special 18002 Aluminum Anti-Seize will eat up aluminum?? Great! I use that on my AR upper receivers. :sad20:

    [EDIT] Manufacturer claims you can use on spark plugs for aluminum block engines. (?)
     

    rockstarr

    Major Deplorable
    Feb 25, 2013
    4,592
    The Bolshevik Lands
    Dead Air does not sell any monocore products that I’m aware of. A Welded baffle stack (tubeless or not) is not the same thing as a monocore design. Probably the most popular company that specializes in monocore designs is Liberty. There are other companies that do it (many who weld the monocore in the tube so one wouldn’t necessarily notice it)

    The two most common complaints with monocore designs are: more prone to first round pop, and somewhat lesser performance ceiling than more traditional baffle stack designs. Oh and they can be a pain in the rear to disassemble and clean. That said one of the 13 or 14 suppressors I own is a Liberty Cosmic, and it sounds pretty good. No major complaints, especially for what I paid for it.


    Maybe I’m using the wrong words then, I’m still new to these things. Example, dead air wolfman’s construction vs something like a griffin optimus 9. What does one refer to the dead air design vs the griffin?
     

    woodline

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2017
    1,947
    Maybe I’m using the wrong words then, I’m still new to these things. Example, dead air wolfman’s construction vs something like a griffin optimus 9. What does one refer to the dead air design vs the griffin?
    The Griffin Optimus is a user serviceable suppressor with removable baffles. The Dead Air Wolfman is a sealed, tubeless design, as is the Nomad. The Sandman series is also considered sealed, but has an outer tube that the baffles are welded to.

    Probably the easiest way to think about a monocore is that the baffles are typically all CNC machined out of one piece of bar stock, which makes it relatively simple to do from a process standpoint, once the design is programmed. Once completed, the core is still typically one piece of material, and does not need to be welded together.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    Maybe I’m using the wrong words then, I’m still new to these things. Example, dead air wolfman’s construction vs something like a griffin optimus 9. What does one refer to the dead air design vs the griffin?


    Monocore Sico Sparrow, the core is machined in 1 piece from the side, housed inside a tube, can be serviceable or welded.
    sparrow.jpg


    Serviceable/ modular with tube and baffles Griffin Optimus. Baffles are machined individually, stacked together, held in place inside the tube, can be serviceable or welded.
    Griffin Armament Optimus-1024x1024.jpg

    Tubeless/welded Sig SRD. Baffles are stacked together, then the seams are welded eliminating the need for an outer tube. Lightest, most interior volume for an exterior size, not serviceable, but can have mounts and caps that screw together, or 2 or more sections can screw together for a modular length system like the Wolfman.
    etECaR9.jpg
     

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