Instruments for elementary schoolEr

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  • Norton

    NRA Endowment Member, Rifleman
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    May 22, 2005
    122,856
    Impossible. There are no famous bone players... ( and probably never will be)

    They say that there are lots of famous professional athletes, but i don't think I could name many current ones because I don't give a shit about athletes.

    I could name a lot of trombone players that are considered famous to those that care about such things.
     

    Norton

    NRA Endowment Member, Rifleman
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    May 22, 2005
    122,856
    I swear - this thread is a great example of why no one who is an actual expert in anything ever wants to contribute.

    Dude asks a question about music, at least 3 full time music teachers chime in that collectively represent over 100 years of knowledge and experience; and people who know a guy, or once heard someone play an instrument, or who knows a pawn shop that has used instruments want that anecdotal advice to trump that experience.

    Next time I have chest pains, I'll just tell my doc that a guy told me apple cider vinegar is better than an EKG or enzyme test to head off a heart attack.

    People usually pay me $400+ a day for consulting work as a musician. Guess I'll just refer them to the real experts.
     

    Rambler

    Doing the best with the worst.
    Oct 22, 2011
    2,163
    OP Please check PM. My friend owns a music store. I have bought 3 violins from him (as well as many other instruments). For a beginner/young student, the purchase of a used decent former rental can be very cheap compared to months of rental fees.
     

    eruby

    Confederate Jew
    MDS Supporter
    There's such a thing as aspiring musicians being "paper trained". They can only play what's written in fromt of them. Some are pretty good, but it suppresses the joy in many ways.

    Think about expressing yourself vocally, for example. You first learn to make sounds, then turn them into words, then learn more words. Only then do you learn to read words on paper.

    The same paradigm holds true for music.

    "Practicing" music is not "playing" - playing implies exploring, enjoying sharing the experience with friends, and often, joy. "Practicing" can bring improvement of skills and some satisfactions, but it misses a lot as well.

    Professor Harold Hill approves.
     

    Bob A

    όυ φροντισ
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 11, 2009
    30,691
    As a musician you have to figure that just about everything you play is comprised of combining a handful of basic techniques - it’s the ability to execute them that’s the key to making music. Ideally you get to the point where you no longer have to think about the physical act of playing the instrument, and that’s what allows you to be expressive musically.

    Totally agree.

    I've found that it's only after more or less committing a piece to memory that you can sit back and listen to yourself play, and while in that detached state you think what sound you'd like to be hearing, and the magic fingers make it happen, somehow. (Not the best description of the process; I need more coffee).
     

    trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 22, 2008
    14,599
    Glen Burnie
    I swear - this thread is a great example of why no one who is an actual expert in anything ever wants to contribute.

    Dude asks a question about music, at least 3 full time music teachers chime in that collectively represent over 100 years of knowledge and experience; and people who know a guy, or once heard someone play an instrument, or who knows a pawn shop that has used instruments want that anecdotal advice to trump that experience.

    Next time I have chest pains, I'll just tell my doc that a guy told me apple cider vinegar is better than an EKG or enzyme test to head off a heart attack.

    People usually pay me $400+ a day for consulting work as a musician. Guess I'll just refer them to the real experts.
    This made me LOL! :) With that said, I tend to agree with it. If you really want to grind your gears, go to a forum for instrumentalists. I used to participate on a couple of trumpet player forums, but it wound up being the same garbage over and over again:

    What mouthpiece/horn should I get?
    What mouthpiece should I get to give me more range?
    I need to perform this piece in two days - how can I add a 5th to my range?
    etc.

    The real gold is when the armchair experts weigh in - the guys whose pinacle of playing is the local community band, and some who are practice room heroes, none of whom get paid with any kind of regularity (if at all) to play. And the crazy thing is, the young kids posing the questions LISTEN to them! Of course it's much more hopeful to hear that this mouthpiece or that trumpet is going to solve your problems. No one wants to hear from the guy who has been in the trenches getting PAID for the last 30 years that there are no shortcuts.

    Totally agree.

    I've found that it's only after more or less committing a piece to memory that you can sit back and listen to yourself play, and while in that detached state you think what sound you'd like to be hearing, and the magic fingers make it happen, somehow. (Not the best description of the process; I need more coffee).
    Me and another fellow trumpet player (Peabody bachelors, Towson masters) went to Towson on a recruiting thing to meet some of the trumpet players there. This one kid made an offhand comment about how he wasn't great at double tonguing. I told him, "Hey - I know a secret to cleaning up your multiple tonguing - want to hear it?" He was all eager - I had him hook, line and sinker.

    Me: "You have do it. Lots and lots and lots of it. Every day. The secret is focused practice - lots of it. The only way to dial that in is to work on it."

    I used to spend entire practice sessions when I was an active duty Army trumpet player working on nothing but articulation. Others would be dedicated to nothing but long tones and sound production, yet others where all I worked on was lip flexibilities.

    It wasn't sexy, but the net result was that when I was in rehearsals or on a gig, I didn't have to think about the technical aspect of playing. That was all second nature with technical skills that had been honed by hours and hours of work in the practice room.
     

    Antarctica

    YEEEEEHAWWW!!!!
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 29, 2012
    1,728
    Southern Anne Arundel
    Hell - lets all bow out, the experts have arrived!!

    $400+ a day? Hell I could make $300 AN HOUR in high school playing trumpet. And that was 30 years ago!! Yep. Every easter sunday. For one freaking hour.

    Seriously. Who gives a crap if you are an expert. If the only people who weighed in on this board were experts, there's be about six posts since MDshooters started. I'm not an expert, and most of those who have added their 2 Cents aren't either.

    What defines an expert? A degree? The best advice I ever got in music was "You don't need a degree t play your horn. If your gonna get a degree in music, teach." Thankfully, I didn't. My sister did though, and she too can pull in $400 a day. And she lives just about at the poverty line. She's an 'expert'. She's truly gifted and teaches at the college level. A fantastic voice and a fantastic voice teacher. She also looks down at 'non-experts' that have phenomenal voices because that weren't classically trained. "That's not singing she says". But they sing songs people remember, not songs that someone wrote a hundred years ago.

    Expert? What is that? i guess coltrane, hendrix, SRV, van halen, peart, atkins, kottke, and hundreds of others weren't experts either.

    Music teacher? who cares? Where I went to school (granted, it wasn't a music school) the entire jazz ensemble was stacked with engineers. Music majors weren't good enough to get in. There were there to get teaching degrees, but most couldn't play their way out of a wet paper bag.

    I thought about this post about an hour ago, while outside working, and thought, 'naaa, just keep your mouth shut". F it. Gripes my ass when a self proclaimed expert stakes out why other people's opinions are less valid. We have the same problem with scientists right now with the 'pandemic'.
     

    Norton

    NRA Endowment Member, Rifleman
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    May 22, 2005
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    Hell - lets all bow out, the experts have arrived!!

    $400+ a day? Hell I could make $300 AN HOUR in high school playing trumpet. And that was 30 years ago!! Yep. Every easter sunday. For one freaking hour.

    Seriously. Who gives a crap if you are an expert. If the only people who weighed in on this board were experts, there's be about six posts since MDshooters started. I'm not an expert, and most of those who have added their 2 Cents aren't either.

    What defines an expert? A degree? The best advice I ever got in music was "You don't need a degree t play your horn. If your gonna get a degree in music, teach." Thankfully, I didn't. My sister did though, and she too can pull in $400 a day. And she lives just about at the poverty line. She's an 'expert'. She's truly gifted and teaches at the college level. A fantastic voice and a fantastic voice teacher. She also looks down at 'non-experts' that have phenomenal voices because that weren't classically trained. "That's not singing she says". But they sing songs people remember, not songs that someone wrote a hundred years ago.

    Expert? What is that? i guess coltrane, hendrix, SRV, van halen, peart, atkins, kottke, and hundreds of others weren't experts either.

    Music teacher? who cares? Where I went to school (granted, it wasn't a music school) the entire jazz ensemble was stacked with engineers. Music majors weren't good enough to get in. There were there to get teaching degrees, but most couldn't play their way out of a wet paper bag.

    I thought about this post about an hour ago, while outside working, and thought, 'naaa, just keep your mouth shut". F it. Gripes my ass when a self proclaimed expert stakes out why other people's opinions are less valid. We have the same problem with scientists right now with the 'pandemic'.

    Meh....not going to get into a Dick measuring contest with an internet blowhard. Your lack of knowledge is demonstrated most of the very musicians you named were in fact highly trained and educated musicians.

    I'll just sit here on the porch of our 3rd property, all pald for with our two 6 figure salaries as full time musicians and sip a beer while the rest of y'all are trying to figure which weekend you'll be playing at some dock bar in Essex.
     

    Norton

    NRA Endowment Member, Rifleman
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    May 22, 2005
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    Hell - lets all bow out, the experts have arrived!!

    $400+ a day? Hell I could make $300 AN HOUR in high school playing trumpet. And that was 30 years ago!! Yep. Every easter sunday. For one freaking hour.

    Seriously. Who gives a crap if you are an expert. If the only people who weighed in on this board were experts, there's be about six posts since MDshooters started. I'm not an expert, and most of those who have added their 2 Cents aren't either.

    What defines an expert? A degree? The best advice I ever got in music was "You don't need a degree t play your horn. If your gonna get a degree in music, teach." Thankfully, I didn't. My sister did though, and she too can pull in $400 a day. And she lives just about at the poverty line. She's an 'expert'. She's truly gifted and teaches at the college level. A fantastic voice and a fantastic voice teacher. She also looks down at 'non-experts' that have phenomenal voices because that weren't classically trained. "That's not singing she says". But they sing songs people remember, not songs that someone wrote a hundred years ago.

    Expert? What is that? i guess coltrane, hendrix, SRV, van halen, peart, atkins, kottke, and hundreds of others weren't experts either.

    Music teacher? who cares? Where I went to school (granted, it wasn't a music school) the entire jazz ensemble was stacked with engineers. Music majors weren't good enough to get in. There were there to get teaching degrees, but most couldn't play their way out of a wet paper bag.

    I thought about this post about an hour ago, while outside working, and thought, 'naaa, just keep your mouth shut". F it. Gripes my ass when a self proclaimed expert stakes out why other people's opinions are less valid. We have the same problem with scientists right now with the 'pandemic'.

    and further let's remember what we are talking about, which advice on which starter violin to get a beginning student, which has absolutely nothing to do with your incoherent rant.
     

    Redcobra

    Senior Shooter
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 10, 2010
    6,422
    Near the Chesapeake Bay
    I started playing Horn in 4th grade. My mom said that every day I practiced I didn't have to do the dishes. :):) Stuck with it. Soloed with my HS band. Went to all Eastern, All State, and toured Europe with the School Band of America. Got a full Scholarship to Peabody Conservatory (not the Prep). Auditioned for and played in the Army band for 3 years (also worked in the Army recording studio). Went back to Peabody after the service on full scholarship again. Supported myself while playing around town (Mechanic, BSO sub, Circus, Ice Show, etc.) while I finished my degrees. Auditioned for the Philadelphia Orchestra and just missed out. Ended up changing careers into Audio Engineering, and taught at Peabody for the next 35 years.

    My mother said "Keep practicing. Your music will take you places you've never imagined."
    Damn if she wasn't right!
     

    Norton

    NRA Endowment Member, Rifleman
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    May 22, 2005
    122,856
    I started playing Horn in 4th grade. My mom said that every day I practiced I didn't have to do the dishes. :):) Stuck with it. Soloed with my HS band. Went to all Eastern, All State, and toured Europe with the School Band of America. Got a full Scholarship to Peabody Conservatory (not the Prep). Auditioned for and played in the Army band for 3 years (also worked in the Army recording studio). Went back to Peabody after the service on full scholarship again. Supported myself while playing around town (Mechanic, BSO sub, Circus, Ice Show, etc.) while I finished my degrees. Auditioned for the Philadelphia Orchestra and just missed out. Ended up changing careers into Audio Engineering, and taught at Peabody for the next 35 years.

    My mother said "Keep practicing. Your music will take you places you've never imagined."
    Damn if she wasn't right!

    Someone asked Pablo Casals why he still practiced at a then advanced age and high degree of success.

    His response was, "I think I'm beginning to make progress."
     

    trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
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    Jul 22, 2008
    14,599
    Glen Burnie
    Hell - lets all bow out, the experts have arrived!!

    $400+ a day? Hell I could make $300 AN HOUR in high school playing trumpet. And that was 30 years ago!! Yep. Every easter sunday. For one freaking hour.
    Holiday church services are always the exception, and they always pay well because the music directors know that if they want decent brass, they need to hire early and they need to pay well. I've made well over a grand on an Easter weekend by stacking jobs - vigil on Saturday night, sunrise service, and then the regular service.

    Again, it's not a dick measuring contest. On one hand I agree - I'm not a degreed musician, either for performance or for education - in fact, I have zero degrees in anything. I manage to make six figures anyway. (Not as a musician)

    I've also come across many degreed musicians who weren't good players at all. However, I also know many many degreed players who are absolutely awesome. I'll also contend that their matriculation in college contributed to their excellence, but I digress.

    All of this talk because a guy asked if he should buy or rent a violin for his child. Then there's my thought - skip the violin and get an instrument their child has a solid chance of actually continuing to play after high school. (bass, guitar, drums, keys...)

    Someone earlier made the comment that most kids don't play after high school. I think it just depends on the kid. My older sister was a truly excellent trumpet player. She went to college and pursued academics that would lead to more lucrative career opportunities because that's what's important to her. I became an army trumpet player and turned down the Army "Green to Gold" program because I wanted to continue to play music. My son is 26 and he's not making much money, but he's continuing to write, play, and tour when he can.

    To the OP, just be supportive. Rent to start, get something better if it sticks, and support them with whatever it is they want to do.
     
    Last edited:

    traveller

    The one with two L
    Nov 26, 2010
    18,269
    variable
    I bought my daughter's first violin (1/2) new and had planned to trade up as we go. Didn't end up working out that way, but the whole thing was less than 2 ears of rental would have cost.

    My kids first brasswind instruments (Trumpet and Sax) I picked up at a Pawn shop. Both were name brand student instruments that had been played very little and required only some basic maintenance to become fully useable.
    My son finally outgrew that student trumpet and a couple of components are just wearing out. So last week I spent a few hours at Chuck Levin's in Wheaton for him to find a concert instrument. I think my pawn shop find would have paid for the sales tax on the 'Bach' he ended up with. Relative to the cost of lessons, the instruments end up being a small number.
     
    Last edited:

    Tomcat

    Formerly Known As HITWTOM
    May 7, 2012
    5,568
    St.Mary's County
    Nothing to do with this thread exactly but when I stopped at our local Re-Store (thrift shop) the other day they had 3 kettle/timpani drums for sale. About $200 a piece. Ask and I’ll provide info if interested
     

    Antarctica

    YEEEEEHAWWW!!!!
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 29, 2012
    1,728
    Southern Anne Arundel
    Holiday church services are always the exception, and they always pay well because the music directors know that if they want decent brass, they need to hire early and they need to pay well. I've made well over a grand on an Easter weekend by stacking jobs - vigil on Saturday night, sunrise service, and then the regular service.

    That was part of my point. That's the only money I ever made playing trumpet, but that quoting how much one made in music had nothing to do with the initial question of whether or not to rent or buy. It served only to dismiss the input of others. I'll let the irony of being called a blowhard stand.


    All of this talk because a guy asked if he should buy or rent a violin for his child. Then there's my thought - skip the violin and get an instrument their child has a solid chance of actually continuing to play after high school. (bass, guitar, drums, keys...)

    I think there's value in both. I don't regret the time and effort I put into studying trumpet, and I don't even want to think about where my life would be if I hadn't had that to keep me focused in high school. I was lucky to be in a great band program and one of the things I told the director was that it was one of the few things I've had in life where there was a pursuit of pure excellence. Much of what we do in life is a tradeoff, but in band we just worked to perform perfectly.

    I guess I would say, to not discourage, but possibly encourage playing something for band/orchestra and something that you can carry on afterwards. But violin is probably an excellent stepping stone to guitar.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    The buy from pawn shop thing would require a parent who is both musical , And technically knowledgeable about the particular instrument in question .

    Meanwhile at the Music Store , that is their bread and butter . Yeah , that means Viva La Capitalism , and they turn a profit . BUT the flipside is totally clueless parent can walk in , mutter 2,maybe 3 words , and walk out adequately equipped with everything their spawn needs to meet the expectations of school band director/ music program , and probably suffice for several years before becoming blatant limiting factor .

    The value added part is the store's knowledge and customer service . They know if they make mistakes , or don't meet the requirements of the music program of any school in 40 mile radius , the word would spread among the band parent community faster than commie bs among sjw's .

    I'll have to get Littlefoot44's observations , as until recently she worked a the proverbial Independent Music Store , in business for many decades , with good reputation , and did steady business in school instrument rentals , in addition to buying and selling new and used instruments of all types and flavors , including pianos and organs .

    I'd give her / them a plug , but it only reopened long enough to get returns of school rental instruments , and have a going out of business sale .

    To translate in firearms context . It's the equivalent of non shooting ( or mostly so) parents having a kid enter a youth shooting program/ league , and going to gun store instead of asking around the neighborhood , or Vito's Pawn Shop . ( Traditional Pawn shops that primarily pawn , not " Pawn Shops " that are 95 % gun stores , that once or twice a week do the odd pawn ).

    And if their is still one near you please patronize the Independent Music Store w/ good reputation , instead of the evil chain stores .

    ************************

    Those discussing here , come from the subsets centered around those who started in school music program , and successfully persued it , at least through school , and are then projecting their experience . The sad , but true reality is huge % of brand new aspiring players quit very quickly , usually before they reach the point of making sounds that noticeably resemble actual music .

    For another comparison , think of rental instruments as hookers . The main advantage is being able to walk away afterwards , with only the modest , known fees negotiated and paid up front .

    The real debate is IF the offspring does stick with it , do you exercise the purchase option on the rental instrument at the end of first school year , with eye to further upgrade once junior is actually out playing the entry instrument , or imeadately jump up to upper mid level instruments .
     

    Rambler

    Doing the best with the worst.
    Oct 22, 2011
    2,163
    The buy from pawn shop thing would require a parent who is both musical , And technically knowledgeable about the particular instrument in question .

    Meanwhile at the Music Store , that is their bread and butter . Yeah , that means Viva La Capitalism , and they turn a profit . BUT the flipside is totally clueless parent can walk in , mutter 2,maybe 3 words , and walk out adequately equipped with everything their spawn needs to meet the expectations of school band director/ music program , and probably suffice for several years before becoming blatant limiting factor .

    The value added part is the store's knowledge and customer service . They know if they make mistakes , or don't meet the requirements of the music program of any school in 40 mile radius , the word would spread among the band parent community faster than commie bs among sjw's .

    I'll have to get Littlefoot44's observations , as until recently she worked a the proverbial Independent Music Store , in business for many decades , with good reputation , and did steady business in school instrument rentals , in addition to buying and selling new and used instruments of all types and flavors , including pianos and organs .

    I'd give her / them a plug , but it only reopened long enough to get returns of school rental instruments , and have a going out of business sale .

    To translate in firearms context . It's the equivalent of non shooting ( or mostly so) parents having a kid enter a youth shooting program/ league , and going to gun store instead of asking around the neighborhood , or Vito's Pawn Shop . ( Traditional Pawn shops that primarily pawn , not " Pawn Shops " that are 95 % gun stores , that once or twice a week do the odd pawn ).

    And if their is still one near you please patronize the Independent Music Store w/ good reputation , instead of the evil chain stores .

    ************************

    Those discussing here , come from the subsets centered around those who started in school music program , and successfully persued it , at least through school , and are then projecting their experience . The sad , but true reality is huge % of brand new aspiring players quit very quickly , usually before they reach the point of making sounds that noticeably resemble actual music .

    For another comparison , think of rental instruments as hookers . The main advantage is being able to walk away afterwards , with only the modest , known fees negotiated and paid up front .

    The real debate is IF the offspring does stick with it , do you exercise the purchase option on the rental instrument at the end of first school year , with eye to further upgrade once junior is actually out playing the entry instrument , or imeadately jump up to upper mid level instruments .

    For those who may not know, kids are started on violins that are not full size. As the kid gets bigger and better, the violins get bigger (and sometimes better) until they are playing a full size version. Then the price goes to the sky is the limit.
    Rentals of starter violins are almost pure profit. The instruments are fully paid for long before the rental term expires. The least expensive option is to buy a starter violin that is a rental return or trade in. It will be quite reasonable since the dealer already has made money on it at least once.

    One thing I have learned about the progress of string students (I am a brass player myself) is that the bow is actually becomes as important if not more so than the violin. In other words, if your student continues with the instrument and trades up to appropriately larger instruments, the bow gets bigger too. Eventually, a high(er) quality bow is needed and some instructors suggest skimping on the violin price wise before you do so on the bow.
     

    trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 22, 2008
    14,599
    Glen Burnie
    Those discussing here , come from the subsets centered around those who started in school music program , and successfully pursued it , at least through school , and are then projecting their experience . The sad , but true reality is huge % of brand new aspiring players quit very quickly , usually before they reach the point of making sounds that noticeably resemble actual music.
    I think it's one of those things where if there isn't some natural ability, frustration can set in with a kid, and with many kids, if they can't do something well right away, they won't continue to do it.

    In my case, I actually started on alto sax because of an older cousin I idolized - he was an exceptional sax player and pursued music in college as a minor to studying to be a sound engineer. I wouldn't say I was a natural on the sax - I was learning it, but I wasn't doing anything any other kid couldn't do. I becamse a trumpet player because my older sister was struggling to maintain first chair in the middle school band on one of the worst horns in the section - an old beat up King cornet. The catch was, we didn't have much money at the time, and the sax had better trade-in value than the cornet, (which we'd gotten from the aforementioned cousin's older brother) so the deal was that I would switch instruments so we could trade the sax on a new trumpet for my sister.

    I remember the car ride home from the music store - in SW Nebraska we had to drive about an hour north to Ogallala, Nebraska from where I grew up in Imperial, to find a music store that had new instruments. We'd taken the cornet, and in the hour car drive home, sitting the back of a 1974 Chevy Capraice Classic station wagon, my older sister taught me how to play a full octave scale up and down from low C to 3rd space C, and how to play "Mary Had a Little Lamb." From day 1 I could make a good sound on the trumpet. It took me a bit to assimilate so that I knew fingerings based on the notes on the page, but I was never "bad." With that said, in 5th and 6th grade, I also wasn't the best in the section - I was middle of the pack, somewhere around 4th in a section of about 8. Then in 7th grade, things started to click - I have no idea why. My range started to naturally expand, my fingers got better, and I started to excel past my peers. By 8th grade I was trading 1st chair with another kid, but by the end of 9th grade, the only kid ahead of me in the HS band was my older sister, who was by then a senior.

    I guess I've been lucky - I was the same way with drums - from day one I could play a basic beat. I'm no Neil Peart, but I'm a solid, fairly versatile player with good time and a good pocket.

    To the OP, encourage and support your child and see if there's a way to make it fun. Offer rewards for practice, and eagerly listen to anything and everything they want to play for you - if they don't think it's fun, or there's no reward in it in some form or fashion, they may not stick with it at all, but if they do, one day you may wind up with a photo of your child similar to this one of my son. :)
     

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