30-30 Cast Bullet Issue

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  • chriskat

    Active Member
    Nov 1, 2009
    110
    I took these rounds to the range yesterday. Had about 40 rounds of various powder charges. They all function fine in a Ted Williams Model 100 I have but in an actual Winchester model 94 the twenty or so rounds I fired were all hard to chamber.

    This round shows why that is. I don't think it's a runout issue because seems the rifling engaged all the way around. My only thought is don't shoot these bullets in this gun.

    Any other thoughts?

    By the way, Lee mould C309-170-F. Bullets with this alloy actually drop about 180 grains.

    Aovl2NP.jpeg
     

    GunBum

    Active Member
    Feb 21, 2018
    751
    SW Missouri
    The two barrels are probably throated differently. On the Ted Williams it is throated long enough to seat the bullet out that far. On the Winchester…. Not so lucky, so you are engaging the rifling.
     

    Trigger Time

    Amazed
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 23, 2013
    1,231
    I had the same problem with that mold in my Marlin 30-30s . I have a bunch of those bullets if anyone wants to try them out.
     

    chriskat

    Active Member
    Nov 1, 2009
    110
    Looking at the outline of those two bullets looks like they got all of the extra 20 grains by making the nose of the bullet longer. I would have gotten at least some of it from making the driving bands longer.
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,737
    Socialist State of Maryland
    I'll give you some advice from shooting lots and lots of 30-30 cast bullets. Make a chamber cast of the shoulder, neck , lead and about an inch of barrel. Size the bullet to .001 to .002 over bore diameter.

    Depending on when Winchester '94's were manufactured, you can have all sorts of dimensions. Usually, the worst combination is having an extra short lead and a thick nosed bullet. Unless you want to spend hours nose sizing, you need an alternative which is usually a different bullet.

    For my loads, I used 16 grains of 2400 powder behind a similar bullet to the Lee 150F and a rifle primer. This load would give me about 1500 or so FPS and could be lubed with liquid alox and never lead the barrel. One thing you don't want to do in guns with short leads is to powder coat. Unless the lead has been eroded badly, a powder coated bullet will get stuck just like your lead bullet did.

    Size your brass to 2.028 - 2.030 and then just neck size if you are going to be shooting the brass in the same rifle. If you want it to last, anneal it every 5 to 7 firings. While 30-30 brass was always easy to get, it is not so much these days as young folks are hunting with different rifles and calibers.
     

    chriskat

    Active Member
    Nov 1, 2009
    110
    Also get yourself a .309 sizing die and some 30 cal gas checks to go with the 150 gr mold John alerted you to. Here's the sizing die:
    https://www.amazon.com/Lee-Precision-90038-SIZING-309/dp/B00162UK4M

    Sized to 309 with gas checks and lubed with Alox those boolits work great in my old Glenfield 30-30.

    Good luck!

    :thumbsup:

    Thanks, already have the gas checks and .309 sizing die. Also have a .310 and .311 on the way. The Winchester groove diameter is .310. Got a bullet stuck in the Ted Williams slugging it, got it out but haven't had the nerve to do it again.
     

    chriskat

    Active Member
    Nov 1, 2009
    110
    I'll give you some advice from shooting lots and lots of 30-30 cast bullets. Make a chamber cast of the shoulder, neck , lead and about an inch of barrel. Size the bullet to .001 to .002 over bore diameter.

    Depending on when Winchester '94's were manufactured, you can have all sorts of dimensions. Usually, the worst combination is having an extra short lead and a thick nosed bullet. Unless you want to spend hours nose sizing, you need an alternative which is usually a different bullet.

    For my loads, I used 16 grains of 2400 powder behind a similar bullet to the Lee 150F and a rifle primer. This load would give me about 1500 or so FPS and could be lubed with liquid alox and never lead the barrel. One thing you don't want to do in guns with short leads is to powder coat. Unless the lead has been eroded badly, a powder coated bullet will get stuck just like your lead bullet did.

    Size your brass to 2.028 - 2.030 and then just neck size if you are going to be shooting the brass in the same rifle. If you want it to last, anneal it every 5 to 7 firings. While 30-30 brass was always easy to get, it is not so much these days as young folks are hunting with different rifles and calibers.

    Thanks, I'm using 4895 because I have a bunch. Haven't been able to find any 2400 for a long time. Years ago my .44 Mag load was 180 grain Sierra JHP over 24.5 grains of 2400.
     

    chriskat

    Active Member
    Nov 1, 2009
    110
    In case you didn't see this in the recreational shooting pages. 2.9" group from the Ted Williams. 100 yards off sand bags. That's okay to me.

    KU7D11b.jpg
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,737
    Socialist State of Maryland
    In case you didn't see this in the recreational shooting pages. 2.9" group from the Ted Williams. 100 yards off sand bags. That's okay to me.

    KU7D11b.jpg

    That's minute of deer for sure. :party29:

    As for slugging, that is old school. Brownells sells a product called Cerrosafe. It melts about 160 degrees and pours into the bore. You let it cool for a half hour and it pushes right out, wait another half hour and it will give you exact measurements.

    https://www.brownells.com/userdocs/learn/Inst-446.pdf

    Here's who has it in stock. You only need one pound as you can use it over and over.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/301227759683
     

    Archeryrob

    Undecided on a great many things
    Mar 7, 2013
    3,064
    Washington Co. - Fairplay
    Wow, I think you're going to need a lot shorter and maybe round nose bullet. I think even a 150 grain lee with a flat meplate might still need to be seated deeper for your chamber. That must have felt like closing a pair of vise locks chambering that round.

    I did my NOE 183 grain bullets in my Marlin at 2.55 OAL and they were fine for mine. Mine is a 1950 model and my buddy has a 1980's marlin and my same round engages the rifling in his just before you close it. Measured my cartridge visible against Remington Core-lok and the tip of the Remington is much narrower allowing it to fit into his chamber even at the same over all length, but my wide meplat one engages.

    Roto metals has casting alloy also
    https://www.rotometals.com/chamber-casting-alloy-ingot-aka-low-158-190f/

    some guys cut a case with a hack saw through the neck into the case and sets a bullet in it and slowly chambers the round. The bullet slides into the case easier than forcing into the rifling. It kind of gives you the exact OAL for that round and that gun and you just shorten it a very small amount.
     

    chriskat

    Active Member
    Nov 1, 2009
    110
    That's minute of deer for sure. :party29:

    As for slugging, that is old school. Brownells sells a product called Cerrosafe. It melts about 160 degrees and pours into the bore. You let it cool for a half hour and it pushes right out, wait another half hour and it will give you exact measurements.

    https://www.brownells.com/userdocs/learn/Inst-446.pdf

    Here's who has it in stock. You only need one pound as you can use it over and over.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/301227759683

    Cerrisafw has been around for a while. I’ve never used it. Maybe I’ll get some.
     

    chriskat

    Active Member
    Nov 1, 2009
    110
    Wow, I think you're going to need a lot shorter and maybe round nose bullet. I think even a 150 grain lee with a flat meplate might still need to be seated deeper for your chamber. That must have felt like closing a pair of vise locks chambering that round.

    I did my NOE 183 grain bullets in my Marlin at 2.55 OAL and they were fine for mine. Mine is a 1950 model and my buddy has a 1980's marlin and my same round engages the rifling in his just before you close it. Measured my cartridge visible against Remington Core-lok and the tip of the Remington is much narrower allowing it to fit into his chamber even at the same over all length, but my wide meplat one engages.

    Roto metals has casting alloy also
    https://www.rotometals.com/chamber-casting-alloy-ingot-aka-low-158-190f/

    some guys cut a case with a hack saw through the neck into the case and sets a bullet in it and slowly chambers the round. The bullet slides into the case easier than forcing into the rifling. It kind of gives you the exact OAL for that round and that gun and you just shorten it a very small amount.

    Thanks for the link. I’ve looked at their web site befor but never bought from them. I have about 300 pounds of pure lead plus a bunch of Linotype. When that’s gone I’ll start buying alloy.
     

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