If a 150 Gr 30 cal FMJ Bullet is traveling at 3,000 FPS......

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  • Jerry M

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2007
    1,688
    Glen Burnie MD
    Angle steel used for rifle downward and no closer that 100 yards. Getting hit with spatter at IPSC type events is not unheard of.

    Good Luck

    Jerry
     

    Goldslammer

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 10, 2010
    710
    Brooklyn Park
    Many years ago I was shooting near what is now Piney Orchard. Shot an acetylene tank with a 357, the ricochet left a bruise on my left arm.
    Would not have wanted to be hit in the face with it!
    I still have the mushroomed copper jacket of the bullet here somewhere....
     
    I'm no rocket scientists, but you should not be shooting at any solid surface. You run a very high risk of hurting yourself or others. I would advise you to stop this activity your playing a very dangerous game. Go to Home Depot or lowes and pick up some sand bags, ten or twenty should work and set up your targets on the bags make it three deep, this will greatly reduce the risk of the rounds coming back at you. Hope this helps.

    Paging Bolts Rocks, Paging Bolts Rocks...
    Yes, MDS does have a resident rocket scientist- seriously.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Beg to differ, the one out of 1,000 did.... well within 10 feet of my shooting spot.

    That isn't actually 180 degrees though.

    To the OPs question, it would depend on too many variables to calculate. What is the hardness of the steel. How is the steel target mounted. Thickness and mass of the steel target. Exact hardness and composition of the bullet, etc.

    A perfect 180 degree bounce back is basically not possible, it'll have to be at some fraction of an angle. The shallower the angle, the lower the imparted energy in reverse is. The harder the target, with higher elasticity, and thinner (so long as it doesn't penetrate) as well as the harder the projectile and the higher its elasticity is, the more velocity imparted in a ricochet.

    You don't want to shoot soft steels not because of a ricochet, but because you don't want to deform the target sufficiently that you blast off a piece of steel that ends up coming at you as well as a lower likelihood of shattering your projectile.

    As for slightly off angle, again, its too hard to calculate exactly what it would be without knowing all of the variables (and I don't know the equations to calculate it), but that is why you have minimum shoot distances on steel targets and why rifles it is usually 100yds for steel...

    On very high velocity projectiles you are likely talking 200-300fps or so. Which is sufficient for a piece or rip clothing and embed in your flesh (generally about 130fps is sufficient to break the skin for a rounded projectile like a BB, sharper requires less velocity). The extra range both makes it less likely you'd be in the path of the ricochet, as well as allowing it to hit the ground first rather than you (well and air resistance to slow it somewhat more).

    A much lower velocity projectile like a pistol bullet is going to be more in the 100-150fps range.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Also, IMHO, if I were ever to be shooting steel all on my lonesome at ranges that weren't pretty long, I'd absolutely be wearing at least some light body armor. No need to armor up with hard plates, but a heavy jacket or light soft armor isn't a terrible idea. Most of that stuff is only going fast enough to hurt, but occasionally it can be enough to cause serious injury.

    IE if mounting steel at the manufacturer minimums, swinging target stand, angled downward. If mounted at significantly longer range than manufacturer minimums, then I'd have no qualms about having them mounted at a 90 to me and/or mounted on rigid mount (like 50+yds for pistol or 200yds+ for steel).
     

    TheOriginalMexicanBob

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 2, 2017
    32,179
    Sun City West, AZ
    I remember my mom smacking the back of my legs with a yardstick...not much pain but that she did it hurt worst. My dad using a belt...that hurt! I remember when my older brother threw a rock at me and bloodied the back of my head...my mom washed the blood off while my dad chased my brother with his belt. "Good Times".
     

    jr88

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 7, 2011
    3,159
    Free?? State
    I remember my mom smacking the back of my legs with a yardstick...not much pain but that she did it hurt worst. My dad using a belt...that hurt! I remember when my older brother threw a rock at me and bloodied the back of my head...my mom washed the blood off while my dad chased my brother with his belt. "Good Times".

    :thumbsup::thumbsup: Yes sir

    I was playing army with with my buddies, hiding in the bushes when one came down the sidewalk in his wagon yelling "Here come the grenades"
    After one of the bricks he was tossing got me in the head, I saw stars and blood.

    Also good times:rolleyes:
     

    JohnnyE

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 18, 2013
    9,466
    MoCo
    Maybe 10 years ago I was pistol shooting at Maryland Small Arms Range's former facility. The guy in the stall immediately to my left fired his, IIRC 9mm pistol, and in an instant I was struck on my bare right bicep by about a 20 grain bullet fragment. It broke the skin and was lodged there for an instant until I smacked that hot piece of lead out of my arm. There is a tiny scar to this day. I saved the hunk of lead in a Ziploc bag with note containing the details...I have to go find it.

    BTW, I got the heck out of there since I figure proper bullet traps aren't supposed to return fire. I guess they weren't keeping up on the maintenance leading up to the move to the new facility.
     

    JamesDong

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Aug 13, 2020
    3,260
    Duffield, Va
    That isn't actually 180 degrees though.

    To the OPs question, it would depend on too many variables to calculate. What is the hardness of the steel. How is the steel target mounted. Thickness and mass of the steel target. Exact hardness and composition of the bullet, etc.

    A perfect 180 degree bounce back is basically not possible, it'll have to be at some fraction of an angle. The shallower the angle, the lower the imparted energy in reverse is. The harder the target, with higher elasticity, and thinner (so long as it doesn't penetrate) as well as the harder the projectile and the higher its elasticity is, the more velocity imparted in a ricochet.

    You don't want to shoot soft steels not because of a ricochet, but because you don't want to deform the target sufficiently that you blast off a piece of steel that ends up coming at you as well as a lower likelihood of shattering your projectile.

    As for slightly off angle, again, its too hard to calculate exactly what it would be without knowing all of the variables (and I don't know the equations to calculate it), but that is why you have minimum shoot distances on steel targets and why rifles it is usually 100yds for steel...

    On very high velocity projectiles you are likely talking 200-300fps or so. Which is sufficient for a piece or rip clothing and embed in your flesh (generally about 130fps is sufficient to break the skin for a rounded projectile like a BB, sharper requires less velocity). The extra range both makes it less likely you'd be in the path of the ricochet, as well as allowing it to hit the ground first rather than you (well and air resistance to slow it somewhat more).

    A much lower velocity projectile like a pistol bullet is going to be more in the 100-150fps range.

    It may be 183 degrees BUT it's close enough for gov't work and my curiosity. Your 100-150fps range for pistol sounds possible but can you back that up or is it just a wild guess?
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    It may be 183 degrees BUT it's close enough for gov't work and my curiosity. Your 100-150fps range for pistol sounds possible but can you back that up or is it just a wild guess?

    I'll try to track it down. I'd read a paper awhile back where they attempted to quantify typical ricochet and fragmentation velocity, but that was from soft steel, not hardened plate. I am sure there are exceptions.

    Here is a nice article that explains at least a bit on how fragmentation of steel (similar for other hard surfaces) works. https://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/03/29/understanding-safety-steel-targets/

    The point is the the angle is ~20 degrees for the fragmentation on a smooth surface, but a non-smooth surface and the bullet is not striking it squarely or you can have compound ricochet where a fragment strikes the steel target, hits the ground and ricochets back at you.
     

    JamesDong

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Aug 13, 2020
    3,260
    Duffield, Va
    It may all be moot now, I ordered this last night.

    AR500 Steel 7" x 12" x 1/2" Slaymaker Rifle Targets Shooting Plate Gong Pistol.

    $31.49 delivered, not bad.
     

    Matlack

    Scribe
    Dec 15, 2008
    8,555
    Without any variables like air resistance or the compression of the item it hit, it would remain constant at 3000 fps.

    Otherwise, the remaining energy will be transfered tangentially.
     

    photoracer

    Competition Shooter
    Oct 22, 2010
    3,318
    West Virginia
    I shoot steel matches all the time. Sometimes you get hit with little pieces but its like knats biting you. The worst time was after a match when a few friends and I swapped guns and were shooting some of the stage steel and a friend was shooting my G34 and I was standing directly behind him. A bullet jacket that had flattened into a shiriken came straight back right past his head and stuck in my nose. I put a napkin on it and stopped by the range office to pick up a couple of band-aids and went home. I was out the next weekend at another match. Hard to keep a band-aid on your nose. No big deal in my book. That is why you wear safety rated glasses. In the summer I usually wear tactical shorts and whatever shooting jersey is appropriate for the match.
     

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