HB 638 Untraceable & Undetectable Firearms

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  • lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    What a shit show. They really are trying to make it something that current owners won't go apeshit about: grandfather it in with a requirement that the owner/maker must mark it and record it, but nothing more (I reviewed the bill text - there is no requirement until 2022 that the markings be made or logged by an FFL). That little Trojan Horse may well be enough to sneak this through. I'm sure a large number of current owners will take the easy route of shrugging their shoulders and say "well, it doesn't impact me in any meaningful way, so I can live with it."

    .... Until in the 2022 session or after they make a requirement that everyone register such guns. Now you have an item with your name and city on it, which can't be obliterated, and if it turns up in your possession unregistered you get bent over by the .gov overlords. Like I said, this is bad not just for what it does, but for the fact that a lot of homemade owners will shrug and ignore it.

    On the other end of the spectrum is the ammunition NICS check right out of California, which is just a train wreck. All. The. Way. Around.

    On some future mandatory registration theory...how does it being engraved with your information make a lick of difference?

    Okay, well if they mandate registration later and you get found with an unregistered gun later, it doesn't matter if it is engraved with your information or blank. You are still screwed, better have registered it.

    Or if registration of them comes along and you really don't want to, destroy the firearm rather than registering it prior to the requirement to submit registration.

    The only way I can see it REALLY mattering is if you've transferred a gun you made for yourself, to someone else later and YOU engraved it with your information prior to transferring it. Well, since the law says once it goes in to effect NO homemade firearm manufactured before January 1, 2022 can be transferred to anyone except a family member or law enforcement...well now THERE is a problem.

    Of course there is the issue that if you had decided to engrave your 80%, say with just a serial number or something, and this bill becomes law, you'll have to find a way to fit in the other things required by this law. Or if your home built firearm DOES NOT HAVE A WAY TO BE ENGRAVED OR PERMANENTLY MARKED THAT COMPLIES WITH THIS BILL AND ATF REQUIREMENTS. My first generation PF940 doesn't have an engraving plate. So I guess if the law passes it goes in a burn barrel after being cut up. At least some of my later generation ones do have engraving plates and could probably be brought in to compliance with this law.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    This will ban all firearms that does not have a commercial manufacturer. My most prized home made firearms cannot be bought, they must be made from scratch, no 80% or "blanks" are available.

    No it doesn't. Read the bill again. Read most of the commentary.

    Anything made before 1/1/2022 just needs to be engraved with the caliber, your full legal name, city of residency (ATF would also require state, but this bill doesn't explicitly state that, but it does say ATF engraving requirements must be followed)) and a unique serial number. Then you need to keep the records.

    Anything MADE after 1/1/2022 an FFL will need to engrave and keep the records. That is unlikely to be able to be legally complied with.

    I hope this law gets desk drawered (actually I hope its sponsor feels shame and spends the rest of their life atoning for such horrible legislation, but that has as much likelihood of happening as me finding a leprechaun's pot of gold). But it needs to be engaged with based on what it is actually doing, which is not a full ban.

    So anything you've made until 1/1/2022 from scratch or from an 80% would remain legal (so long as it is metal and can be engraved or has an engraving plate. All plastic like a PF940V1/1.5, SOL). You probably could not build anything after that point unless this bill is amended before passage (and I hope it doesn't pass at all).
     

    Rab1515

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 29, 2014
    2,081
    Calvert
    No it doesn't. Read the bill again. Read most of the commentary.

    Anything made before 1/1/2022 just needs to be engraved with the caliber, your full legal name, city of residency (ATF would also require state, but this bill doesn't explicitly state that, but it does say ATF engraving requirements must be followed)) and a unique serial number. Then you need to keep the records.

    Anything MADE after 1/1/2022 an FFL will need to engrave and keep the records. That is unlikely to be able to be legally complied with.

    I hope this law gets desk drawered (actually I hope its sponsor feels shame and spends the rest of their life atoning for such horrible legislation, but that has as much likelihood of happening as me finding a leprechaun's pot of gold). But it needs to be engaged with based on what it is actually doing, which is not a full ban.

    So anything you've made until 1/1/2022 from scratch or from an 80% would remain legal (so long as it is metal and can be engraved or has an engraving plate. All plastic like a PF940V1/1.5, SOL). You probably could not build anything after that point unless this bill is amended before passage (and I hope it doesn't pass at all).

    Pray tell how exactly is a FFL supposed to engraved a firearm or blank, before I am able to make it? I am not talking about 80%'s, I am talking about 0% because these firearms have NEVER been made by an FFL. Defacto ban.
     

    randomuser

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 12, 2018
    5,776
    Baltimore County
    On some future mandatory registration theory...how does it being engraved with your information make a lick of difference?

    Okay, well if they mandate registration later and you get found with an unregistered gun later, it doesn't matter if it is engraved with your information or blank. You are still screwed, better have registered it.

    Or if registration of them comes along and you really don't want to, destroy the firearm rather than registering it prior to the requirement to submit registration.

    The only way I can see it REALLY mattering is if you've transferred a gun you made for yourself, to someone else later and YOU engraved it with your information prior to transferring it. Well, since the law says once it goes in to effect NO homemade firearm manufactured before January 1, 2022 can be transferred to anyone except a family member or law enforcement...well now THERE is a problem.

    Of course there is the issue that if you had decided to engrave your 80%, say with just a serial number or something, and this bill becomes law, you'll have to find a way to fit in the other things required by this law. Or if your home built firearm DOES NOT HAVE A WAY TO BE ENGRAVED OR PERMANENTLY MARKED THAT COMPLIES WITH THIS BILL AND ATF REQUIREMENTS. My first generation PF940 doesn't have an engraving plate. So I guess if the law passes it goes in a burn barrel after being cut up. At least some of my later generation ones do have engraving plates and could probably be brought in to compliance with this law.

    Would you really destroy your own weapon because of a politicians pen stroke?
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Pray tell how exactly is a FFL supposed to engraved a firearm or blank, before I am able to make it? I am not talking about 80%'s, I am talking about 0% because these firearms have NEVER been made by an FFL. Defacto ban.

    Per what I said. Yes, after 1/1/2022 you could not make any and be in compliance with this law as FFL’s can’t engrave it for you.

    Anything made PRIOR to that date could comply
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Would you really destroy your own weapon because of a politicians pen stroke?

    In this instance if there is no other way to comply? Yes.

    $70 in economic damages to me because I could not bring that frame in to compliance with the law. Or possibly a couple of years in prison, a $1,000 fine and being permanently barred from firearm ownership for continuing to possess a firearm I could never legally use in self defense, or take to a range, or out in public, or...

    I am not suddenly disarmed. Nor has a class of firearms been denied to me by law. I still retain my factory Glock 17 frame and firearm built upon it. I could still retain other firearms I’ve made.

    Have I written my MGA reps and senators opposing this law? Yes.
     

    randomuser

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 12, 2018
    5,776
    Baltimore County
    In this instance if there is no other way to comply? Yes.

    $70 in economic damages to me because I could not bring that frame in to compliance with the law. Or possibly a couple of years in prison, a $1,000 fine and being permanently barred from firearm ownership for continuing to possess a firearm I could never legally use in self defense, or take to a range, or out in public, or...

    I am not suddenly disarmed. Nor has a class of firearms been denied to me by law. I still retain my factory Glock 17 frame and firearm built upon it. I could still retain other firearms I’ve made.

    Have I written my MGA reps and senators opposing this law? Yes.


    I'm genuinely interested in all perspectives on this so that is why I ask. If they change the law again and made any magazine larger than 10 rounds illegal would you turn them in or destroy them?
    Or
    If they made us register magazines (std capacity 30's) would you register them?
     

    THier

    R.I.P.
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 3, 2010
    4,998
    Muscleville
    2 A FIREARM OR AN UNFINISHED FRAME OR RECEIVER THAT THE PERSON
    3 MANUFACTURED OR ASSEMBLED AND LAWFULLY POSSESSED BEFORE JANUARY 1,
    4 2022, IF:

    Would finishing an 80% fall between cracks? I mean you didn't manufacture it you finished it.

    Also, if you buy a lower from a manufacturer, and parts to complete it, do you change the manufacturers serial number because you assembled it? Or, you damage a receiver to the point it must be replaced. So you order a new frame, again, now you assembled it, does it need your name, city, blood type, and shoe size?

    Ok, as someone asked earlier, you comply, then move. Do you need to change the serial number? Then you move again, rinse and repeat?

    Ok, now it is serialized, so I assume you can leave it to a family member, what then?

    Someone brings one from out of state,, how long do they have bodies they get tossed in pokey?
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    I'm genuinely interested in all perspectives on this so that is why I ask. If they change the law again and made any magazine larger than 10 rounds illegal would you turn them in or destroy them?
    Or
    If they made us register magazines (std capacity 30's) would you register them?

    All laws have levels of compliance. Ones that hurt people tend to have higher levels of compliance than victimless crimes and virtue signaling crimes. Ones with higher penalties the same.

    I’d need to know what the penalties were, likelihood of getting caught, what I’d gain/lose by complying or not.

    Has everyone here speed at least once in their life? I’d bet probably every driver has at least once. Has anyone here robbed a bank (I hope no)?

    Compliance costs, risk and reward. If >10 round magazines became illegal and the punishment was a $20 fine and loss of the magazine if caught my answer might be different than if it was 10 years in prison and a $10,000 fine per magazine.

    If the punishment for underage drinking was a public flogging and a year in prison, you’d probably see higher compliance rates (I am not advocating floggings and prison time for underage drinking kind you).

    Crimes that hurt people have the dual penalties of both moral as well as penal risk. I have done a bad, evil thing and I go to prison if caught. Victimless crimes/virtue signaling crimes have lower/no moral penalties, but still carry penal crimes. Example, so long as someone doesn’t have a religious prohibition, are they going to feel real bad about drinking a couple of beers as a 20yr old? Probably not. But they could still face a fine, criminal record and might suffer some time in jail till bailed out and some community service.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Would finishing an 80% fall between cracks? I mean you didn't manufacture it you finished it.

    Also, if you buy a lower from a manufacturer, and parts to complete it, do you change the manufacturers serial number because you assembled it? Or, you damage a receiver to the point it must be replaced. So you order a new frame, again, now you assembled it, does it need your name, city, blood type, and shoe size?

    Ok, as someone asked earlier, you comply, then move. Do you need to change the serial number? Then you move again, rinse and repeat?

    Ok, now it is serialized, so I assume you can leave it to a family member, what then?

    Someone brings one from out of state,, how long do they have bodies they get tossed in pokey?

    All good questions and should be raised in testimony. Both your very last as well as when manufactured. Must it be engraved BEFORE being manufactured? Is there leeway on time? What if moving from out of state?

    For the moving or family member transfer, I’d assume no on needing to change it. It doesn’t say anything about changing the engraving later or bearing whatever the current home address is. Just when it is made, who made and and where do they live.

    But a good question. Do you continue to retain the record for life if you’ve given it to a family member? What if you die? Who maintains the record then?

    It is poor language about manufacture or assemble. Heck, if I own a handgun, say a Glock 17 and decide I want a .40S&stupid, I mean W, and I remove the slide and install a G22 slide on it. Well I’ve assembled the firearm. Certainly not what it was. Does it run afoul of the law?

    The intent to me is clear they just want any guns you are making from 80% or from scratch to be engraved so they can identify who made it if ever lost and found or used in a crime. And the person who made it has a record so police can look at it so you aren’t cheating or something. I guess.

    But the language is BAD
     

    PowPow

    Where's the beef?
    Nov 22, 2012
    4,712
    Howard County
    The ENTIRE POINT of a home built firearm is to have something that isn't on the radar... as you were.

    I would augment your point by adding that for some, the challenge and satisfaction of making something themselves is also part of it. People were making firearms themselves long before folks worried about them being on someone's radar. Just like reloading ammo, casting bullets, replacing a car engine, etc.
     

    DivingDriver

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 14, 2016
    1,514
    Nanjemoy MD
    How about you finish “making ” it. Now how long till you have to have the receiver engraved ,24 hours, a week, a month a year. The law as presented is a bad bill and needs to be removed.
     

    Kicken Wing

    Snakes and Sparklers
    Apr 5, 2014
    868
    WASH-CO
    No it doesn't. Read the bill again. Read most of the commentary.

    Anything made before 1/1/2022 just needs to be engraved with the caliber, your full legal name, city of residency (ATF would also require state, but this bill doesn't explicitly state that, but it does say ATF engraving requirements must be followed)) and a unique serial number. Then you need to keep the records.

    Another part that makes no sense... Unique serial number. Unique to what? Unique to my own gun collection ONLY? How many people scrawled FYOMALLEY on their receivers after 2013? Common names in the same town? Mine is. Even if there are only 2 gun owners with the same name and town with number 0001 engraved then this exercise becomes pointless.

    What about the criminal advantage to this law. Engrave a name of someone that you hate on any 80 percent, commit crime, leave gun behind with no prints, engraved persons home gets raided and they are left having to defend themselves in court.

    A criminal could love this law. They can keep doing business as usual AND blame someone else.
     

    Allen65

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 29, 2013
    7,063
    Anne Arundel County
    Another part that makes no sense... Unique serial number. Unique to what? Unique to my own gun collection ONLY?

    That seems to be drawn from the Federal markings rules based on 27 CFR, where "unique" means to a specific manufacturer name. So FFL07 John Smith, Inc. can only issue one serial #0001, regardless of model or firearm type.
     

    Kicken Wing

    Snakes and Sparklers
    Apr 5, 2014
    868
    WASH-CO
    Another point that I don't think has been mentioned yet... What about pre 1/1/21 receiver that has already been engraved? Some people already have theirs engraved. If you do not already have it engraved per the bill, then what happens? Maybe you had your initials on it with other info. I guarantee you that nobody that has a made their own firearm has already coincidentally engraved their receiver to comply with this proposed bill. I think Lazarus has sort of said this in so many words.
     

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