Brass Framed 1858

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  • kmittleman

    Active Member
    Nov 22, 2010
    857
    Howard County
    Hi all,

    I’m thinking about getting a Traditions/ Pietta one of these. Any thoughts on these? Do the frames really wear out that fast?

    Thanks!

    K
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,726
    Socialist State of Maryland
    If you shoot it with 18 to 20 grains of BP or Pyrodex, it won't loosen up on you and will last a long time. Just fill the space on top of the powder with corn meal and you will get good consistent ignition and good groups. Just leave about a quarter inch space to put some Crisco in before you load the ball. That will insure consistent burn, clean your barrel and keep the cylinder lubed so it doesn't carbon up.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,877
    Answer #1 - Remington design inherently affected by brass frames than Colt designs .

    Answer # 2 - Eventually steel cylinder impacting brass frame face will result in battering and increased headspace ( does that term apply to C&B revolvers ?). As noted by John , mild loads , aka less inertia of cylinder impacting frame , will substantially increase service life , often to the extent of being ok for more rounds than shooters would ever shoot thru them .
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,726
    Socialist State of Maryland
    Answer #1 - Remington design inherently LESS affected by brass frames than Colt designs .

    Answer # 2 - Eventually steel cylinder impacting brass frame face will result in battering and increased headspace ( does that term apply to C&B revolvers ?). As noted by John , mild loads , aka less inertia of cylinder impacting frame , will substantially increase service life , often to the extent of being ok for more rounds than shooters would ever shoot thru them .

    FIFY :D
     

    Archeryrob

    Undecided on a great many things
    Mar 7, 2013
    3,063
    Washington Co. - Fairplay
    I use the 21 grain spout on mine for my paper cartridges. I like it, but honestly to do it over I probably wouldn't buy it. My steel frame is just clean and put away after drying. The brass frame gets to look like dingy brass pretty darn quick. It should be a display gun you just occasionally shoot. If you want it bright and shiny you're going to need to polish it A LOT!
     
    Last edited:

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,726
    Socialist State of Maryland
    I use the 21 grain spout on mine for my paper cartridges. I like it, but honestly to do it over I probably wouldn't buy it. My steel frame is just clean and put away after drying. The brass frame gets to look like dingy brass pretty darn quick. It should be a display gun you just occasionally shoot. If you want it bright and shiny you're going to need to polish is a lot.

    I just let the brass get old and dingy and tell visiting shooters at the range that it was carried by Stonewall Jackson. :lol: The parents never believe me but the kids eat it up.
     

    Brickman301

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 23, 2015
    2,530
    FREDERICK, MD
    Hi all,

    I’m thinking about getting a Traditions/ Pietta one of these. Any thoughts on these? Do the frames really wear out that fast?

    Thanks!

    K

    Ive had a brass frame with a 12” barrel, for about 20 years. I only shoot heavy loads though, and I’ve never had an issue. On the flip side, it really doesn’t get shot much. I bought it strictly for hunting, hence the longer barrel. I’ve been lucky enough to take 2 deer with it, and a wild boar in South Carolina. Doesn’t go out much anymore, it’s a pain to carry. 40 grains of 3f powder, round ball and a little grease over the cylinder barely fits.

    My steel framed 58’s with 8” barrels see a lot more range time with much milder loads. Lots of fun!
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,877
    Everything wears out eventually , in this catagory more from battering than cycling . The heavier the loads, the more cumulative battering .

    But how much is plenty of lifespan ? How many thousands of rounds does average buy shoot their C&B ?

    As rough rule of thumb :

    Brass < Typical Italian Replica Steel < the legandary Ruger Old Army ( used same steel and heat treatment as Blackhawk)
     

    Harrys

    Short Round
    Jul 12, 2014
    3,362
    SOMD
    The modern so called brass frames are not brass at all they are made of bronze which is substantially stronger and harder. Manufacturers would be real stupid if they made them out of brass. Especially when you can buy conversion cylinders to shoot modern ammo from them. The brass could not stand up to modern ammo but bronze can. People call propeller blades on their boats brass when they are actually made of bronze.

    I know this because I have borrowed an XRF metal analyzer to check metal types. A couple of us had this discussion several years ago, one had an original brass frame revolver and one had a modern one and I used my henrys as a test also. The antique was brass and the modern replica along with my henry were bronze.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,278
    HoCo
    The modern so called brass frames are not brass at all they are made of bronze which is substantially stronger and harder. Manufacturers would be real stupid if they made them out of brass. Especially when you can buy conversion cylinders to shoot modern ammo from them. The brass could not stand up to modern ammo but bronze can. People call propeller blades on their boats brass when they are actually made of bronze.

    I know this because I have borrowed an XRF metal analyzer to check metal types. A couple of us had this discussion several years ago, one had an original brass frame revolver and one had a modern one and I used my henrys as a test also. The antique was brass and the modern replica along with my henry were bronze.

    did it show the individual metal content that the alloys were made of?
    Both Bronze and Brass are alloys and just like different types of steel and stainless steel, the blend can make a difference.
    The bronze that most people are familiar with is more reddish from the copper, I wonder if the blend they use comes into consideration. I expect they would NOT pick an alloy that was so soft that it would bend.


    Did the device you use give a hardness rating?
    I'd be worried more about fracture and bending. Maybe fracture being worse. I would expect brass or bronze to be better against a fracture then cheap steel.

    BTW, my conversion cylinders do say NOT to use them in brass framed revolvers.
     

    Harrys

    Short Round
    Jul 12, 2014
    3,362
    SOMD
    did it show the individual metal content that the alloys were made of?
    Both Bronze and Brass are alloys and just like different types of steel and stainless steel, the blend can make a difference.
    The bronze that most people are familiar with is more reddish from the copper, I wonder if the blend they use comes into consideration. I expect they would NOT pick an alloy that was so soft that it would bend.


    Did the device you use give a hardness rating?
    I'd be worried more about fracture and bending. Maybe fracture being worse. I would expect brass or bronze to be better against a fracture then cheap steel.

    BTW, my conversion cylinders do say NOT to use them in brass framed revolvers.

    Here what the XRF scanned

    Copper: 90%
    Tin: 12%
    Lead: .5%
    Zinc: .5%
    Iron: .015%
    Antimony: 0.2%
    Nickle: 0.5%
    Sulphur: 0.05%
    Phosphorus: 0.3%
    Aluminum: 0.003%
    Silicone: 0.003%

    It does not tell hardness.

    In order to determine if a revolver is brass framed an XRF scan is needed. Most manufacturers will not disclose the make up of their metals. It is hard to tell modern bronze from modern brass or antique brass. Older bronze may have a slight reddish hue where modern bronze does not.

    Henry makes their rifles with brass receivers however, the term brass is also used as an overall term for bronze.

    You cannot use modern modern 45/70 government shells in antique or lever action rifles with brass or steel receivers they will blow up.

    Modern lever action rifles with brass "bronze" or steel receivers can accommodate high powered modern 45/70 government loads.

    The addition of nickel, iron, aluminum and antimony change the color and adds considerable hardness to the brass "bronze" frames or receivers.
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,726
    Socialist State of Maryland
    Here what the XRF scanned

    Copper: 90%
    Tin: 12%
    Lead: .5%
    Zinc: .5%
    Iron: .015%
    Antimony: 0.2%
    Nickle: 0.5%
    Sulphur: 0.05%
    Phosphorus: 0.3%
    Aluminum: 0.003%
    Silicone: 0.003%

    It does not tell hardness.

    In order to determine if a revolver is brass framed an XRF scan is needed. Most manufacturers will not disclose the make up of their metals. It is hard to tell modern bronze from modern brass or antique brass. Older bronze may have a slight reddish hue where modern bronze does not.

    Henry makes their rifles with brass receivers however, the term brass is also used as an overall term for bronze.

    You cannot use modern modern 45/70 government shells in antique or lever action rifles with brass or steel receivers they will blow up.

    Modern lever action rifles with brass "bronze" or steel receivers can accommodate high powered modern 45/70 government loads.

    The addition of nickel, iron, aluminum and antimony change the color and adds considerable hardness to the brass "bronze" frames or receivers.

    Did you use a Niton Apollo by any chance. I've seen them used in scrap yards so they don't get ripped off.
     

    Harrys

    Short Round
    Jul 12, 2014
    3,362
    SOMD
    That's over 114% ?

    It is metallurgy, with the base metal at 90% and is the starting point. So anything added to the base metal is a +. If you add another 90% to the base metal it would equal 180%. It is not a volume thing but a % added to the base.
     

    Harrys

    Short Round
    Jul 12, 2014
    3,362
    SOMD
    Did you use a Niton Apollo by any chance. I've seen them used in scrap yards so they don't get ripped off.

    We used a VANTA not sure which model as it was not mine. I have a friend who owns a pawn shop and has invested in using an XRF to check precious metal types and percent. He once took a customers word on 1 ounce gold bars ad the center was slugged with lead. It also prevents the need to drill the bars to check for slugs.
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,726
    Socialist State of Maryland
    We used a VANTA not sure which model as it was not mine. I have a friend who owns a pawn shop and has invested in using an XRF to check precious metal types and percent. He once took a customers word on 1 ounce gold bars ad the center was slugged with lead. It also prevents the need to drill the bars to check for slugs.

    Yea, a lot of rip offs out there. :sad20:
     

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