National Concealed Carry Reciprocity Bill question

Kharn · Dec 12, 2016

Double post

Kharn · Dec 12, 2016

I think some states, like FL, would keep issuing to out-of-state residents since their permitting is already handled through a centralized office.

HR 986 had some interesting wording for how to handle NY/NJ shenanigans:

“(2) When a person asserts this section as a defense in a criminal proceeding, the prosecution shall bear the burden of proving, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the conduct of the person did not satisfy the conditions set forth in subsections (a) and (b).

“(3) When a person successfully asserts this section as a defense in a criminal proceeding, the court shall award the prevailing defendant a reasonable attorney’s fee.

“(d) (1) A person who is deprived of any right, privilege, or immunity secured by this section, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage of any State or any political subdivision thereof, may bring an action in any appropriate court against any other person, including a State or political subdivision thereof, who causes the person to be subject to the deprivation, for damages or other appropriate relief.

“(2) The court shall award a plaintiff prevailing in an action brought under paragraph (1) damages and such other relief as the court deems appropriate, including a reasonable attorney’s fee.

My interpretation: If you get cuffed, you get paid.
VA Beach is still regularly paying (IIRC) $10k per arrested CCW'er, they pick up a few per year and VCDL brings the hammer down for them.

rmiddle · Dec 12, 2016

Kharn said:
I bet Florida and a few other popular states would keep their programs just for the NJ/NY/MD population.

Some of the previously submitted reciprocity bills had very well laid out measures to stop NY/NJ shenanigans, like holding the arresting official and department liable for your lawyer and damages if you're so much as taken to the station.

Utah has a provision that if you state has reciprocity you can't get a Utah without having a local permit. Utah out of state permits will be useless 5 seconds after the Federal law goes into effect.

Thanks
Robert

Kharn · Dec 13, 2016

That's something Utah can fix pretty easily once they realize their income is going to dry up.

I think other states will also rise to prominence, VA's permit only requires a hunter's education, NRA firearms, or state/NRA-certified online course.

swinokur · Dec 13, 2016

I wonder if the GFSZA will be fixed so as not to criminalize not having a permit in the state where schools are located.

Allen65 · Dec 13, 2016

swinokur said:
I wonder if the GFSZA will be fixed so as not to criminalize not having a permit in the state where schools are located.

That would be a pretty easy fix, too. Change "issued by" to "recognized by" and you solve the problem for lawful CCers while still retaining the add-on charge for those carrying with bad intent. A minor, almost administrative, change to the law like that might even attract a few D votes in the Senate.

The optics of voting the whole GFZA away makes that a much tougher hill to climb. Better to do something that fixes the core problem for law-abiding CCers w/o giving the antis sound bites.

swinokur · Dec 13, 2016

Excellent suggestion. still maintains the intent of the law without making criminals out of legal CCW'ers.

press1280 · Dec 13, 2016

rmiddle said:
Utah has a provision that if you state has reciprocity you can't get a Utah without having a local permit. Utah out of state permits will be useless 5 seconds after the Federal law goes into effect.

Thanks
Robert

It would be interesting to see if they actually hold to this or only do it for the state's that recognized UT before. Would UT throw someone out who already had a permit after their state began recognizing UT?

swinokur · Dec 13, 2016

As you noted, I wonder if Federally "mandated" recognition would count if the individual state didn't do it, but only does it because of a Federal statute mandating it.

Interesting stuff

Keystone70 · Dec 13, 2016

swinokur said:
As you noted, I wonder if Federally "mandated" recognition would count if the individual state didn't do it, but only does it because of a Federal statute mandating it.

Interesting stuff

This is exactly the question. Nothing in MD would actually state they accept Utah.

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Pinecone · Dec 13, 2016

rmiddle said:
More likely once National Reciprocity is passed. All the out of state permits go away. It would help people like me who live in Shall issue states but hurt people living in states like MD, NY, and NJ. Also there are lots of questions if area's will just ignore the law. Think FOPA it is supposed to protect people carry weapons across state lines but NJ and New York City pretty much ignore it. Depending on how the law is written I could easily see those places ignoring the CCW rights of people and arresting them and making them prove themselves not guilty same as they are doing now with people properly carrying under FOPA standards.

Thanks
Robert

Why would states that issue non-res permits take the time to change their laws to stop issuing them?????

And considering, there are still a number of states that do not or seldom issue permits, so issuing non-res permits is still a positive revenue stream. In other words, IT MAKES MONEY.

press1280 · Dec 13, 2016

Pinecone said:
Why would states that issue non-res permits take the time to change their laws to stop issuing them?????

And considering, there are still a number of states that do not or seldom issue permits, so issuing non-res permits is still a positive revenue stream. In other words, IT MAKES MONEY.

I agree. If it takes effort and really doesn't matter, they won't do anything. There's all sorts of weird laws still on the books that aren't enforced but are still there because it takes effort to repeal.

BeoBill · Dec 13, 2016

rmiddle said:
More likely once National Reciprocity is passed. All the out of state permits go away. It would help people like me who live in Shall issue states but hurt people living in states like MD, NY, and NJ. Also there are lots of questions if area's will just ignore the law. Think FOPA it is supposed to protect people carry weapons across state lines but NJ and New York City pretty much ignore it. Depending on how the law is written I could easily see those places ignoring the CCW rights of people and arresting them and making them prove themselves not guilty same as they are doing now with people properly carrying under FOPA standards.

Thanks
Robert

I sincerely doubt that. Nonresident permits are a quick and easy cash crop for a number of states. They won't give up the revenue stream without a fight.

Personally, I'd love to see Frosh try to sue several states and the Feds for allowing concealed carry (or carry, for that matter) in his little fiefdom. And lose.

swinokur · Dec 13, 2016

Many states have a policy of honoring states that honor theirs, including NR permits.

By not changing their policy, it would guarantee reciprocity for those of us in may issue states if the National reciprocity legislation requires a home state permit. So you could continue to carry in those states as well.

Getting rid of NR permits deprives a state of a revenue stream, no matter how small it might be. What is to be gained by doing such a thing?

Mark75H · Dec 15, 2016

BeoBill said:
I'd love to see Frosh try to sue several states and the Feds for allowing concealed carry (or carry, for that matter) in his little fiefdom. And lose.

Frosh will have it in court so long that his grandson will probably be Attorney General before we can carry in MD.

I'll bet a ham sandwich and chips that we can't carry in MD for at least 4 years after any nation wide reciprocity is signed by Trump or Pence.

swinokur · Dec 15, 2016

I'd speculate 2 years but a ham sammich with chips is worth the bet.

Pinecone · Dec 16, 2016

press1280 said:
I agree. If it takes effort and really doesn't matter, they won't do anything. There's all sorts of weird laws still on the books that aren't enforced but are still there because it takes effort to repeal.

Yeap, like the law that any motorized vehicle in a town to be proceeded by a man on foot with a red lantern and ringing a bell.

00Dan · Dec 17, 2016

I wonder if we can get a bill that will address certain ban aspects such as magazine capacity or hollow points in NJ. None of the bills I have seen so far address these issues.

swinokur · Dec 17, 2016

Nope. The 10A would prohibit it.

IANAL or Brooklyn

00Dan · Dec 17, 2016

swinokur said:
Nope. The 10A would prohibit it.

IANAL or Brooklyn

Since when has Congress or the courts ever paid attention to the 10A? /s

Realistically though, it just reinforces the knowledge that the most effective way to achieve our goals is with a court ruling rather than legislation.

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