FIRST FAMILY FIREARM

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

  • No ad networks!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • 28Shooter

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 19, 2010
    8,206
    Baltimore, Maryland
    I find it amusing that politicos with Secret Service details have the nerve/gall to tell the rest of us how to defend ourselves.
     

    cstone

    Active Member
    Dec 12, 2018
    842
    Baltimore, MD
    I find it amusing that politicos with Secret Service details have the nerve/gall to tell the rest of us how to defend ourselves.

    Biden didn't have a detail until early this year. VPs don't get protection for life, and I expect Biden's detail to discontinue by November 5th.

    But I whole heartedly concur with the point of your post. Public servants who are protected by other public servants, paid for by tax payers, armed by tax payers, should sign off of protection before they make stupid comments about disarming free citizens.
     

    EsBee

    Member
    Sep 4, 2020
    14
    As a newbie myself, my preference is:

    1) AR-15
    2) 9mm semi-automatic handgun
    3) Other, more powerful semi-automatic handguns like the ones that shoot .45ACP
    4) 12 Gauge Shotgun

    Your mileage may vary.
     

    davsco

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 21, 2010
    8,607
    Loudoun, VA
    But I whole heartedly concur with the point of your post. Public servants who are protected by other public servants, paid for by tax payers, armed by tax payers, should sign off of protection before they make stupid comments about disarming free citizens.

    completely agree! while the rest of us peons aren't in the public eye as possible targets, murderers, rapists, carjackers, looters, rioters etc aren't very discriminatory in their targets. and i'd wager that way more crimes are attempted and committed against peons than the politicians.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,167
    Hatcher on Shotgun
    http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b3110494;view=1up;seq=228

    Textbook of Firearms Investigation, Identification and Evidence
    By Julian Hatcher
    Page 211

    “Because the shotgun is intended to scatter a load of light shot,
    which will not kill even small feathered game at distances greater
    than about 80 yards, few people realize the extreme deadliness of
    this type of weapon at very short ranges, such as ten feet or under.
    It is doubtful if there exists today upon this earth an animal
    which cannot be killed, or at least instantly disabled with the 12
    bore shotgun and a load of ordinary No. 4 shot, provided that the
    shooter wait until that animal comes up to the very muzzle of his
    gun before shooting. The result is that a veritable "rat hole" will
    be blown into the animal, and the tissues in and around the wound
    will be pulped and torn horribly by the load of shot entering the
    flesh in a churning mass. Nothing could be more effective in stop-
    ping the charge of an infuriated bull, just to quote one example.”
     

    DitchDoctor

    Member
    Oct 30, 2020
    15
    Yeah as long as you can handle it. Easy to use and when you pump it, everyone within hearing distance knows you mean business. 12 gauge is a universal language.
     

    Grampa G

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 11, 2010
    2,452
    Washington Co.
    I saved several boxes of my dads 12ga mag reloads for geese from back in the day when #2 copper plated lead was used. It’s guaranteed to slow an intruder
     

    Foohaus

    Member
    Nov 22, 2020
    67
    If you’re thinking about a prepper-oriented firearm, the “I’m not a gunsmith” in me says that a break action 12 gauge is a good choice. Fewer moving parts, easy to clean, etc.

    I echo what everybody else mentioned about training. Using a pump shotgun accurately and quickly under duress is not easy, and without training and practice, it’s a lot of gun.

    One other consideration—others here may disagree, but if the family has young kids, I’d consider how they can store their weapon to keep it ready, but not accessible to young children who don’t have the experience or judgement to safely handle (or know not to handle) a firearm.

    Pistols have a steep learning curve, but there are a lot of options for fast-access lock boxes. Granted, those won’t stop a 13 year-old with basic tools and access to YouTube from getting to the firearm, but they’ll keep a 6 year-old from accessing it.

    The best way to keep your kids safe around firearms is to teach them how to use them safely, but for young kids, I think access control is the only option. I just don’t see how you’d do that with a cruiser-ready shotgun. Sure, it would be hard for a kid to cycle a pump, but I wouldn’t rely on that.

    Along those lines, I keep all our long guns locked up, and have a pistol in a fast access lock box for home defense.
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    It's been about a decade since I first posted this here, may as well post it again...
    Rifle(ar-15/m4gery version)
    $700-1200
    pros:
    *Limited overpenetration- with fast hollow point ammo(expecially 55 gr and lighter varmint stuff) the projectile deforms and fragments, usually after the first wall and quickly loses ability to cause damage to liabilities. It still packs good energy to do some impressive damage though. Heavier weights like 77gr hollow points are better for defense(as when they come apart, they have more mass to turn in to more fragments...they also penetrate better in person...but walls too)
    *30 rnds....higher capacity than handguns and way higher capacity than shotguns
    *easy to aim-with a handgun your wrist, elbow, and shoulder are all free to move and must be controlled to make an accurate shot. With a rifle/shotgun, your wrist and elbow are largely stabilized and taken out of the equation. Aso, the longer barrel/sight radius makes ar-type rifles easier to snap shoot quickly and accurately without using the sights at all.
    *can be used one-handed since it's a semi-auto....however, it is difficult and you will need something to support the front.
    *Stopping power- 5.56 is no slouch and is more than adequate for most things with HP ammo.

    cons:
    *No free hand- While you CAN shoot one-handed, it's better to use both. This doesn't leave you with a free hand to call 911, pull a child along, or open doors.
    *Loud- All guns are pretty loud inside a room, a carbine is very loud...especially if you made the mistake of putting a comp on the end of a home defense ar. It can be minimized with krink/flaming pig/levang style muzzle devices that project sound more forward and away from the shooter.
    *Long- Even a m4'ish gun with the stock collapsed is long and harder to move around with than a handgun.
    *expensive- At $700-1200(unless you're getting a kel-tec), they're more expensive than a decent handgun or shotgun.

    *Ideally in a defensive situation, you are at an automatic disadvantage trying to clear your house by yourself, without a team. The person/people in a room know where you will be coming from(the door/opening), they just dont know when. You 1) don't know when you will encounter them and 2) don't know in which part of the room they will be located. If you were clearing with a team, you've divide rooms into sectors of fire so that each person knows what part of the room is his/her responsibility. They also know when they will be making the entrance. All they must decide is if the person in their sector of fire is a threat or not..a much faster decision process than reacting to someone coming through the door.

    The best defensive strategy is to get you+loved ones behind a locked/barricaded door, get 911 on the phone and keep your gun on the opening. If something comes through that you identify as a threat, make it holey.


    Handgun
    $400-800
    Pros:
    Maneuverability- IF you HAVE TO go wandering through your house to check out a mysterious bump in the night or if you need to grab your kids and pull them to your room you're going to barricade yourselves in....then handguns are easy to move around with.
    capacity/reloading- Capacity is less than the carbine, but more than the shotgun. Reloads are typically faster than either.
    Free hand- Handguns only take one hand to operate. You can even chamber rounds and clear malfunctions with relative ease one-handed if need be. This allows you to pull kids along, hold a flashlight(so you aren't pointing a loaded gun at the shape you're trying to identify as family/foe), or talk on the phone with 911.

    Cons:
    wimpy- Shot placement is always key, but 9mm, 40 short n wimpy, and 45 ACP/AGI(as god intended) wound by crushing a permanent cavity through someone. The permanent cavity will be a hole roughly .6-.8" x 12-16" long with 9,40, or 45 with .45 only really having an edge because of less deflection through hard stuff(ribs/glass..etc). Compared to a rifle or shotgun, handguns are pretty pathetic stoppers. They're roughly equivalent to stabbing somone with a sharpened broomstick...you've either got to hit structure(fracture hip gurdle/ other important bones), Hit CNS(spine or brain), or make them bleed out quick enough to lose blood pressure and pass out.
    Hard to aim- Because your wrist, elbow, and shoulders are all free to move, under stress you will have a large margin of error each time you pull the trigger. Like mentioned earlier...LEO shots/hit ratio is something around 17/1. You've got to train constantly and you'll still have a hard time hitting somethin important when both you and the target are moving in the dark while you're shaking from adrenaline.
    Overpenetration- When compared to the aforementioned ar choices, any handgun cartridge that's a worthwhile penetrator(which it must be to be effective) will also penetrate through dozens of sheets of drywall. Slower/heavier projectiles like handguns shoot tend to stay together, retain weight and truck on a relatively straight line through lots of walls. Combined with a 17/1 ratio....not good for your neighbors/loved ones.


    Shotguns:
    $200-450
    *Generally misunderstood. People think of them as the most simple defensive tool, when in reality they are one of the most complicated. You must decide on chokes, slugs vs. shot...what kind of shot...what kind of sights....when does your pattern open up to where you'd need slugs instead of buckshot...where is the POI on that slug at that distance and the next 50 yds or so...how are you going to continuously reload it during a fight.....etc?

    Pros:
    "Stopping power"-8-15x .36 caliber lead balls flying through the air towards your attacker makes a big mess of him/her. Every pull of the trigger, you're essentially unloading an entire magazine from a 9mm.
    Easy to aim- Same as a carbine. Long sight radius and locking your wrist and elbow
    Cheap- Around $220 for a mossberg maverick 88 with 8-shot and 20" barrel

    Cons:
    Overpenetration-"no it isn't, i just use birdshot in my shotgun"...birdshot will still penetrate drywall.....however, it won't penetrate badguy to any depth that will matter. You're using OO buck for defense, it penetrates badguy effectively...birdshot wont. Buckshot is very "handgunnish" in ballistics and will penetrate lots of drywall
    Liabilities galore- as mentioned in the pros...each pull of the trigger, you're letting fly up to 15 .36 cal balls. You have general control over where the cloud of shot goes, but not where each individual shot goes. Depending on your distance, that could mean lots of liabilities skipping past the threat that you have absolutely no control over.
    Capacity- Even your highest capacity shotguns will have about half the capacity of the average handgun. Instead of slapping a new mag in, you have to be a master of continuously feeding a shotgun.
    Unweildy- Even short tactical shotguns are longer than a m4ish ar(18" barrel vs 16" barrel plays in to that).
    Two-hands- You're home defense pump-shotgun requires two hands for operation(unless you're sarah connor)....again, no phone, open doors, or dragging of kids.



    The one to add now is the PCC. It has the strengths of an AR, but the weakness of a handgun cartridge in the same size firearm as a 5.56. The benefit of the PCC for beginners is that you can train easier. Being able to shoot it at your local indoor handgun range is a HUGE plus. Generally ammo is usually cheaper too so more practice time per dollar.

    So it's reasonable to start with am AR style PCC, and then transition to a 5.56 version later.
     

    Attachments

    • 20201206_125008.jpg
      20201206_125008.jpg
      48.6 KB · Views: 199

    mangleu

    Active Member
    Jan 29, 2020
    100
    Is the 12 gauge pump shotgun the best firearm to recommend to a family for home protection?

    Personally I'd say a pistol caliber carbine for the size, sound, weight, and recoil. Otherwise I'd recommend an ar15. If you really want a shotgun I'd recommend trying them out first or going with a 20 gauge.
     

    SCARCQB

    Get Opp my rawn, Plick!
    Jun 25, 2008
    13,614
    Undisclosed location
    I would recommend a good semi automatic shotgun if you really insist on one. Keep it loaded with buckshots that’s been patterned and tested for reliability. Then leave it alone.

    I prefer a semi as it’s easier to operate. Some people , especially those under stress or someway at unfamiliar with how shotguns work can simply take the safety off , aim and pull the trigger.

    Then, there’s the issue of recoil. A semi auto can dampen the recoil of a 12g as to not intimidate novice shooters. My female friend is about 106 lbs and has no issue running 3” magnum 12g buckshots out of a semi auto Benelli m4 or FN SLP. But she fears shooting the 2 3/4 buckshot from a mossy 590 pump.

    Panzer arms makes a good Benelli m4 clone if you’re concerned about your budget. These run < 600 bucks.

    Another option is a midlength AR in 223 wylde. The middy is very soft shooting. It’s also very easy to shoot well.
     

    Attachments

    • 54556FEF-0F74-4637-A3DB-6E963D1744B5.jpg
      54556FEF-0F74-4637-A3DB-6E963D1744B5.jpg
      106.5 KB · Views: 223

    toppkatt

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 22, 2017
    1,185
    Actually I thought he was asking what shotgun Biden would recommend:
    'First family' shotgun

    To that I thought is was a double barrel; shot off the porch so the neighbors would hear it and call the police for you....:sad20:
     

    leomort

    Active Member
    Jul 31, 2020
    199
    Is the 12 gauge pump shotgun the best firearm to recommend to a family for home protection?

    Probably not a shotgun for a family. At least not a family who isn't into firearms. Dad may be able to handle the recoil of self-defense buckshot, maybe not. Is dad going to become familiar enough to learn how to operate the pump? Will he go shoot a few rounds of skeet over next few months to become familiar how to operate it? Good enough not to short stroke it under stress of home invasion/ burglary at 2 am in the morning? Now apply that to his wife? and kids? That's why I'm saying probably not.

    Probably not even an AR15 if the family isn't into firearms and who is unlikely to become familiar with how operate it, etc. If family is willing to learn and practice with said firearm, then a striker fire 9mm of their choice. If not, then a 4" revolver in 357mag shooting 38specials.


    Many of us who hang out here on these forums are firearms enthusiasts and willing to learn to become familiar with said firearm and shoot it fairly often. Unfortunately that's not most people or families.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,167
    Probably not a shotgun for a family. At least not a family who isn't into firearms. Dad may be able to handle the recoil of self-defense buckshot, maybe not. Is dad going to become familiar enough to learn how to operate the pump? Will he go shoot a few rounds of skeet over next few months to become familiar how to operate it? Good enough not to short stroke it under stress of home invasion/ burglary at 2 am in the morning? Now apply that to his wife? and kids? That's why I'm saying probably not.

    Probably not even an AR15 if the family isn't into firearms and who is unlikely to become familiar with how operate it, etc. If family is willing to learn and practice with said firearm, then a striker fire 9mm of their choice. If not, then a 4" revolver in 357mag shooting 38specials.


    Many of us who hang out here on these forums are firearms enthusiasts and willing to learn to become familiar with said firearm and shoot it fairly often. Unfortunately that's not most people or families.

    +1
    Revolvers no safety to disengage, slide to rack, or chance of stove piping from a weak grip. If it doesn't go bang just pull the trigger again. For revolvers for newbie home defense I recommend a 6" barrel because it is easier to keep pointed at the target and say practice with .38 special but load .357 for defense because the adrenaline will take care of the added recoil.

    Family shotgun the 20 gauge will be better for wives and children to handle.
     

    leomort

    Active Member
    Jul 31, 2020
    199
    @Blacksmith101,

    If I was able to recommend a second firearm for the family, I'd go with Ruger 10/22 or whatever semiauto 22lr you like. Is it ideal? Nope! But watch the kids take to shooting the 10/22, even mom is more likely to get involved once she sees the kids. It's cheap (relatively speaking today), no recoil, and FUN! That last part is important as that means everyone will WANT to shoot the 22lr as often as possible. Dad may have an issue keeping the family supplied with ammo! While 22lr isn't ideal, 10 rounds in quick succession isn't something to be taken lightly or underestimated. Add that Dad will have 9mm striker fire handgun and mom has revolver or maybe both have revolvers, and family isn't that bad off.
     
    Last edited:

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Handguns take practice and skill to shoot accurately.

    Long guns are MUCH easier for a novice, or someone who will not shoot enough to learn and maintain skills to shoot accurately.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    Handguns take practice and skill to shoot accurately.

    Long guns are MUCH easier for a novice, or someone who will not shoot enough to learn and maintain skills to shoot accurately.

    This.

    AR is versatile as a HD gun and a plinking gun. .22 LR conversions are readily available to get people used to the platform. My 79 year old mother prefers it at the range (in 5.56). It was the second gun she shot in her life. The first being a .38 revolver.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    This.

    AR is versatile as a HD gun and a plinking gun. .22 LR conversions are readily available to get people used to the platform. My 79 year old mother prefers it at the range (in 5.56). It was the second gun she shot in her life. The first being a .38 revolver.

    Years ago there was an article in one of the gun magazines (before the internet) that discussed the training and skill retention issues between hand guns and long guns.

    It was something like 200 - 500 rounds to get basically proficient with a hand gun, then 50 - 100 rounds per month to maintain the proficiency.

    And the discussed how quickly handgun skills deteriorated.

    Long guns required less rounds to get started. Less rounds per month. And if you didn't practice, you retained the majority of the skill even over an extended time.
     

    Users who are viewing this thread

    Latest posts

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    274,946
    Messages
    7,259,815
    Members
    33,350
    Latest member
    Rotorboater

    Latest threads

    Top Bottom