Been asked before, buying firearm in PA

Ab_Normal · Mar 23, 2013

tdt91 said:
I know an FFL in DE that wouild have sold me an AR cash n carry until I told him that it was a restricted gun in MD. It's not in DE so he didn't realize it's like a handgun. However, it sounds as though it is legal to do so. It maybe the Fed law that comes into play about following both laws.

Anyway it sounds a little gray to me.

Nothing gray about it: "If a resident of this State is eligible to purchase a rifle or shotgun under the laws of an adjacent state, the resident may purchase a rifle or shotgun from a federally licensed gun dealer in the adjacent state."

Read it for what it says NOT what everyone wants it to mean. If you would other wise meet the requirements of a resident of the adjacent state you would be able to under federal law and the Md. law cited above. The only thing that would stop you would be an adjacent state's restriction on out of state purchasers.

gutshootem · Mar 24, 2013

About 6-8 months back I stopped in the BPS in Harrisburg and was checking out some of the ARs. I asked the guy behind the counter if I would be able to purchase one being an MD resident and his response was "I can sell you anything on the back wall, just can't sell you a handgun. "

Ab_Normal · Mar 24, 2013

gutshootem said:
About 6-8 months back I stopped in the BPS in Harrisburg and was checking out some of the ARs. I asked the guy behind the counter if I would be able to purchase one being an MD resident and his response was "I can sell you anything on the back wall, just can't sell you a handgun. "

And you bought?

Tacticalglobe · Mar 24, 2013

Not all AR's are regulated firearms.
It could happen legally.

gutshootem · Mar 27, 2013

Ab_Normal said:
And you bought?

No, I was back and forth between an AR and a new flintlock and ended up going with a hawken.

Ab_Normal · Mar 27, 2013

gutshootem said:
No, I was back and forth between an AR and a new flintlock and ended up going with a hawken.

NOT THE DREADED ASSAULT RIFLES THEY TALKED ABOUT IN THE CONSTITUTION!?

:omg:

Cyclone · Mar 27, 2013

DickyDck said:
Just spoke to a friend of mine that supposedly went up to PA, and cash and carried an AR15 out of a store in Ft Loudon, and drove his ass back into maryland where he resides. This sound fishy to anyone else but me?

HBAR...

kcd · Mar 28, 2013

Ab_Normal said:
Nothing gray about it: "If a resident of this State is eligible to purchase a rifle or shotgun under the laws of an adjacent state, the resident may purchase a rifle or shotgun from a federally licensed gun dealer in the adjacent state."

Read it for what it says NOT what everyone wants it to mean. If you would other wise meet the requirements of a resident of the adjacent state you would be able to under federal law and the Md. law cited above. The only thing that would stop you would be an adjacent state's restriction on out of state purchasers.

When there are different interpretations of a Law, a common practice is to look at how it was ruled in the past in the court of law.

Maverick0313 · Mar 28, 2013

Didn't know this....

Ab_Normal · Mar 28, 2013

kcd said:
When there are different interpretations of a Law, a common practice is to look at how it was ruled in the past in the court of law.

What is there to interpret? It is clear enough that anyone on a 6th grade reading comprehension level should be able to understand it.

People tend to make things more difficult than they really are or need to be.

why2kmax · Mar 28, 2013

Ive purchased many "MD regulated" rifles in PA and always had to ship them to a MD FFL.

This § 5-204. Purchasers of rifles or shotguns. Thing seems to say I can cash/carry them instead correct? Im guessing PA FFLs error on the side of caution to protect themselves OR they just dont know about this little tidbit. Hell this would be a boon if I found what I wanted in a PA store vs the 60 day wait here.

Im guessing this wouldnt apply to SBRs or anything needing a tax stamp though right? I bought an SBR in PA and it has been transferred to a MD FFL but the MD FFL has had it since FEB 22nd and "hasnt gotten to unpack it yet" which has me LIVID.

I assume since its a BATF item, the stamp has to be applied for in the state you live in?

Norton · Mar 28, 2013

Ab_Normal said:
Actually Md waives the requirement for regulated rifle and shotgun purchases in adjacent states as long as you follow the rules of the adjacent state. You would have to follow the Md regulated long gun rules if you bought it in any other state but the specified 4 adjacent states.

§ 5-204. Purchasers of rifles or shotguns.

(a) "Adjacent state" defined.- In this section, "adjacent state" means Delaware, Pennsylvania, Virginia, or West Virginia.
(b) Resident of this State in adjacent state.- If a resident of this State is eligible to purchase a rifle or shotgun under the laws of an adjacent state, the resident may purchase a rifle or shotgun from a federally licensed gun dealer in the adjacent state.

Ab_Normal said:
I agree somewhat but it is in the law so it is legal right?

Ab_Normal said:
That's what it says. Federal law says you have to follow the laws of both states when purchasing rifles or shotguns in a state that isn't your residence. In this statute Md. defers to the 4 adjacent states laws so whatever their law is is what has to be followed for long guns - rifles and shotguns only. You still wouldn't be able to purchase handguns though since that is a federal restriction.

Ab_Normal said:
Nothing gray about it: "If a resident of this State is eligible to purchase a rifle or shotgun under the laws of an adjacent state, the resident may purchase a rifle or shotgun from a federally licensed gun dealer in the adjacent state."

Read it for what it says NOT what everyone wants it to mean. If you would other wise meet the requirements of a resident of the adjacent state you would be able to under federal law and the Md. law cited above. The only thing that would stop you would be an adjacent state's restriction on out of state purchasers.

Ab_Normal said:
And you bought?

Ab_Normal said:
What is there to interpret? It is clear enough that anyone on a 6th grade reading comprehension level should be able to understand it.

People tend to make things more difficult than they really are or need to be.

You know....before you start dispensing advice about the law to people and then berating them about their reading comprehension, you might want to do your own more thorough research before you land someone a long stay in a small cell with a large lonely man for a roommate.

Maryland has three different classes of firearms: 1. Handguns, 2. Rifles/Shotguns and 3. Regulated Firearms (which are both handguns and regulated long guns). You'll notice in the Maryland code that the part that you cited only deal with rifles and shotguns, which are both superseded by the regulated firearm statute.

(emphasis is mine)

PUBLIC SAFETY
TITLE 5. FIREARMS
SUBTITLE 1. REGULATED FIREARMS

Md. PUBLIC SAFETY Code Ann. § 5-137 (2012)

§ 5-137. Out-of-state purchases

(a) Requirements for purchase. -- A person who seeks to own a regulated firearm and purchases the regulated firearm from an out-of-state federally licensed gun importer, manufacturer, or dealer shall:

(1) have the federally licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer ship the regulated firearm to a licensee for processing; and

(2) comply with §§ 5-103, 5-104, 5-117 through 5-129, and 5-136 of this subtitle

.

(b) Waiver of requirements. -- If a person purchases a regulated firearm for use within the scope of the person's official duties, the Secretary may waive the 7-day waiting period under § 5-124 of this subtitle for:

(1) law enforcement personnel of any unit of the federal government;

(2) members of the armed forces of the United States or the National Guard; or

(3) law enforcement personnel of the State or any local agency in the State
.

HISTORY: An. Code 1957, art. 27, § 445A; 2003, ch. 5, § 2; ch. 21, § 7.

and rather than bore everyone with the text of §§ 5-103, 5-104, 5-117 through 5-129, and 5-136, here are just the highlights of what §§ 5-117 through 5-129 covers:

§ 5-117. Application for regulated firearm required
§ 5-118. Firearm application
§ 5-119. Exemption from certified firearms training course requirement
§ 5-120. Copies of firearm application; fees
§ 5-121. Investigation of firearm applicant
§ 5-122. Disapproval of firearm application
§ 5-123. Time for licensee to complete transactions
§ 5-124. Secondary transactions
§ 5-125. Approved, on hold, and disapproved applications
§ 5-126. Hearings
§ 5-127. Judicial review
§ 5-128. Purchases within 30 days -- In general
§ 5-129. Purchases within 30 days -- Multiple purchases allowed

Plainly stated, if one purchases a regulated long gun outside of Maryland, they are required to have it shipped to a MD FFL as others here have said.

Ab_Normal · Mar 28, 2013

Norton said:
You know....before you start dispensing advice about the law to people and then berating them about their reading comprehension, you might want to do your own more thorough research before you land someone a long stay in a small cell with a large lonely man for a roommate.

Maryland has three different classes of firearms: 1. Handguns, 2. Rifles/Shotguns and 3. Regulated Firearms (which are both handguns and regulated long guns). You'll notice in the Maryland code that the part that you cited only deal with rifles and shotguns, which are both superseded by the regulated firearm statute.

(emphasis is mine)

and rather than bore everyone with the text of §§ 5-103, 5-104, 5-117 through 5-129, and 5-136, here are just the highlights of what §§ 5-117 through 5-129 covers:

Plainly stated, if one purchases a regulated long gun outside of Maryland, they are required to have it shipped to a MD FFL as others here have said.

How does Md. have jurisdiction in 4 listed states re:5-137? Let me answer, they don't. 5-104 states that when I purchase a rifle or shotgun in any of the 4 states listed I have to follow the laws of those states. Yes federal law states that FFL's must follow the laws of both states. 5-104 defers to the laws of the 4 adjacent states. 5-137 tells the other 45 states how to handle the transaction.

It really isn't hard to comprehend. The law list what is to be done in 5-137. Then a little later in 5-204 they make an exception. Pretty much standard practice for any exemption to a law. You have to make the law first before you can have an exemption.

YMMV

Norton · Mar 28, 2013

Ab_Normal said:
How does Md. have jurisdiction in 4 listed states re:5-137? Let me answer, they don't. 5-104 states that when I purchase a rifle or shotgun in any of the 4 states listed I have to follow the laws of those states. Yes federal law states that FFL's must follow the laws of both states. 5-104 defers to the laws of the 4 adjacent states. 5-137 tells the other 45 states how to handle the transaction.

You're incorrect, and dangerously negligent in your interpretation.

Take your own advice and read what the law says, not what you think it says.

The statute on rifles and shotguns has nothing to with regulated firearms.

Norton · Mar 28, 2013

Ab_Normal said:
It really isn't hard to comprehend. The law list what is to be done in 5-137. Then a little later in 5-204 they make an exception. Pretty much standard practice for any exemption to a law. You have to make the law first before you can have an exemption.

Here are the exemptions to the out of state purchase of a regulated firearms.

§ 5-137. Out-of-state purchases

(a) Requirements for purchase. -- A person who seeks to own a regulated firearm and purchases the regulated firearm from an out-of-state federally licensed gun importer, manufacturer, or dealer shall:

(1) have the federally licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer ship the regulated firearm to a licensee for processing; and

(2) comply with §§ 5-103, 5-104, 5-117 through 5-129, and 5-136 of this subtitle.

(b) Waiver of requirements. -- If a person purchases a regulated firearm for use within the scope of the person's official duties, the Secretary may waive the 7-day waiting period under § 5-124 of this subtitle for:

(1) law enforcement personnel of any unit of the federal government;

(2) members of the armed forces of the United States or the National Guard; or

(3) law enforcement personnel of the State or any local agency in the State.

It isn't hard to comprehend.

There are no state exceptions to the regulated firearms statute other than what is listed above. There's a reason why the regulated firearm statutes are separate from the ones dealing with "rifles and shotguns".

Ab_Normal · Mar 28, 2013

Norton said:
You're incorrect, and dangerously negligent in your interpretation.

Take your own advice and read what the law says, not what you think it says.

The statute on rifles and shotguns has nothing to with regulated firearms.

The statute on regulated firearms ONLY applies to handguns in the 4 adjacent states per the exclusion in 5-204. It does apply to all Md. regulated firearms in the other 45 states. There is no interpretation needed. It says what it says.

A rifle (as referenced in 5-204 to 4-201) is:

(e) Rifle.- "Rifle" means a weapon that is:
(1) designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder; and
(2) designed or redesigned, and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

A shotgun is substantially the same except the barrel is 18".

And to even clarify it from a federal standpoint the 'assault weapons' are transferred as either a long gun (rifle or shotgun) on the federal form. The definition of rifle and shotgun means virtually the same thing in Md. and federally.

Put them together like this and then read it, it makes it much clearer:

PUBLIC SAFETY
TITLE 5. FIREARMS
SUBTITLE 1. REGULATED FIREARMS

Md. PUBLIC SAFETY Code Ann. § 5-137 (2012)

§ 5-137. Out-of-state purchases

(a) Requirements for purchase. -- A person who seeks to own a regulated firearm and purchases the regulated firearm from an out-of-state federally licensed gun importer, manufacturer, or dealer shall:
(1) have the federally licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer ship the regulated firearm to a licensee for processing; and

(2) comply with §§ 5-103, 5-104, 5-117 through 5-129, and 5-136 of this subtitle
.
(b) Waiver of requirements. -- If a person purchases a regulated firearm for use within the scope of the person's official duties, the Secretary may waive the 7-day waiting period under § 5-124 of this subtitle for:
(1) law enforcement personnel of any unit of the federal government;

(2) members of the armed forces of the United States or the National Guard; or

(3) law enforcement personnel of the State or any local agency in the State

§ 5-204. Purchasers of rifles or shotguns.

(a) "Adjacent state" defined.- In this section, "adjacent state" means Delaware, Pennsylvania, Virginia, or West Virginia.
(b) Resident of this State in adjacent state.- If a resident of this State is eligible to purchase a rifle or shotgun under the laws of an adjacent state, the resident may purchase a rifle or shotgun from a federally licensed gun dealer in the adjacent state.

Ab_Normal · Mar 28, 2013

Norton said:
Here are the exemptions to the out of state purchase of a regulated firearms.

It isn't hard to comprehend.

There are no state exceptions to the regulated firearms statute other than what is listed above. There's a reason why the regulated firearm statutes are separate from the ones dealing with "rifles and shotguns".

OK. For the sake of this discussion, say you are right, who would prosecute this 'crime'?

Keep in mind the Md. defines rifle and shotgun virtually the same as the feds.

Norton · Mar 28, 2013

Ab_Normal said:
The statute on regulated firearms ONLY applies to handguns in the 4 adjacent states per the exclusion in 5-204.

Read the definition of what a regulated firearm is. You're becoming so invested in your position that you aren't even paying attention to something this simple.

If there was an exemption to the requirement that a regulated firearm (as defined below) be transferred a MD FFL, it would be listed in this part of code. This fixation on "adjacent states" has nothing whatsoever to do with regulated firearms.

PUBLIC SAFETY
TITLE 5. FIREARMS
SUBTITLE 1. REGULATED FIREARMS

Md. PUBLIC SAFETY Code Ann. § 5-101 (2012)

§ 5-101. Definitions

(p) Regulated firearm. -- "Regulated firearm" means:

(1) a handgun; or

(2) a firearm that is any of the following specific assault weapons or their copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured that assault weapon:

(i) American Arms Spectre da Semiautomatic carbine;

(ii) AK-47 in all forms;

(iii) Algimec AGM-1 type semi-auto;

(iv) AR 100 type semi-auto;

(v) AR 180 type semi-auto;

(vi) Argentine L.S.R. semi-auto;

(vii) Australian Automatic Arms SAR type semi-auto;

(viii) Auto-Ordnance Thompson M1 and 1927 semi-automatics;

(ix) Barrett light.50 cal. semi-auto;

(x) Beretta AR70 type semi-auto;

(xi) Bushmaster semi-auto rifle;

(xii) Calico models M-100 and M-900;

(xiii) CIS SR 88 type semi-auto;

(xiv) Claridge HI TEC C-9 carbines;

(xv) Colt AR-15, CAR-15, and all imitations except Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR rifle;

(xvi) Daewoo MAX 1 and MAX 2, aka AR 100, 110C, K-1, and K-2;

(xvii) Dragunov Chinese made semi-auto;

(xviii) Famas semi-auto (.223 caliber);

(xix) Feather AT-9 semi-auto;

(xx) FN LAR and FN FAL assault rifle;

(xxi) FNC semi-auto type carbine;

(xxii) F.I.E./Franchi LAW 12 and SPAS 12 assault shotgun;

(xxiii) Steyr-AUG-SA semi-auto;

(xxiv) Galil models AR and ARM semi-auto;

(xxv) Heckler and Koch HK-91 A3, HK-93 A2, HK-94 A2 and A3;

(xxvi) Holmes model 88 shotgun;

(xxvii) Avtomat Kalashnikov semiautomatic rifle in any format;

(xxviii) Manchester Arms "Commando" MK-45, MK-9;

(xxix) Mandell TAC-1 semi-auto carbine;

(xxx) Mossberg model 500 Bullpup assault shotgun;

(xxxi) Sterling Mark 6;

(xxxii) P.A.W.S. carbine;

(xxxiii) Ruger mini-14 folding stock model (.223 caliber);

(xxxiv) SIG 550/551 assault rifle (.223 caliber);

(xxxv) SKS with detachable magazine;

(xxxvi) AP-74 Commando type semi-auto;

(xxxvii) Springfield Armory BM-59, SAR-48, G3, SAR-3, M-21 sniper rifle, M1A, excluding the M1 Garand;

(xxxviii) Street sweeper assault type shotgun;

(xxxix) Striker 12 assault shotgun in all formats;

(xl) Unique F11 semi-auto type;

(xli) Daewoo USAS 12 semi-auto shotgun;

(xlii) UZI 9mm carbine or rifle;

(xliii) Valmet M-76 and M-78 semi-auto;

(xliv) Weaver Arms "Nighthawk" semi-auto carbine; or

(xlv) Wilkinson Arms 9mm semi-auto "Terry".

Ab_Normal · Mar 28, 2013

Norton said:
Read the definition of what a regulated firearm is. You're becoming so invested in your position that you aren't even paying attention to something this simple.

If there was an exemption to the requirement that a regulated firearm (as defined below) be transferred a MD FFL, it would be listed in this part of code. This fixation on "adjacent states" has nothing whatsoever to do with regulated firearms.

That only applies to Md. since 5-204 defers to the other states and to my knowledge they don't have a 'regulated' firearm list that includes rifles and shotguns.

Norton · Mar 28, 2013

Ab_Normal said:
OK. For the sake of this discussion, say you are right, who would prosecute this 'crime'?

Keep in mind the Md. defines rifle and shotgun virtually the same as the feds.

Maryland defines a "regulated firearm" as something other than a "rifle or shotgun".

The out of state FFL would not be observing MD law as they are required to do and would be subject to penalties as established by federal law and BATFE regulations.

The MD resident who purchases the firearm out of state without transferring it through a MD FFL would be in violation of MD law and subject to penalties as established by MD. I would suppose they could also be subject to federal penalties.

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