MD residents taking guns into PA

Bean Guy · Apr 20, 2013

My wife owns land in Huntingdon County in PA, its very rural and is a great place to shoot. Folks there are the opposite of Frosh and O'Mallly. At the same time, police are nosy and I don't want to be talking with PA state police about my handguns if something comes up while I'm enroute. Should I get a non resident carry permit, understand that the sherrif's in PA issue those.

Boom Boom · Apr 21, 2013

Keep the guns in locked cases (unloaded, any magazine removed, separate from ammo) in the trunk until you get to your property. Drive to your property like grandma. Follow all rules of the road. Nothing should come up unless you do something dumb, like speeding, running a red light or stop sign, cell phone pasted to ear while driving, etc.

Biggfoot44 · Apr 21, 2013

In order to get a Pa non-resident permit, you must first have a Md permit. You can get a non-res permit from a third state that is recognized by Pa. But if all you want to do is shoot on the property, and not carry in general in Pa , than just transport as noted above.

Threeband · Apr 21, 2013

Pennsylvania won't give you a License To Carry Firearms (LTCF) unless you already have a Maryland permit.

It's not a bad idea to have something that Pennsylvania recognizes as an equivalent, however. An LTCF-equivalent could provide some peace of mind while transporting in Pennsylvania.

The Florida Concealed Weapons Permit has been a popular choice. Recently, however the Pennsylvania Attorney General (a Bloomberg bankrolled shill) has announced the Florida Permit will not be honored after June 1 I believe. There's a thread around here somewhere with the story. It looks like they no longer honor the Arizona or Virginia permits either.

For now, Pennsylvania still recognizes the Utah non-resident permit, perhaps because Utah has more rigorous training requirements. Utah requires a special training course which is offered by several instructors in this area. Check the Industry Partners section under "training". Getting the Utah permit is a pretty simple process, and the permit is honored in over 30 states, including all our neighboring states.

http://www.mdshooters.com/forumdisplay.php?f=129

http://handgunlaw.us/states/pennsylvania.pdf

Pennsylvania's handgun transport laws are just as bad as Maryland's, maybe worse. If you're going to transport handguns, even unlocked in the trunk, an LTCF or a Utah permit could give you a lot of legal protection.

Ab_Normal · Apr 21, 2013

Biggfoot44 said:
In order to get a Pa non-resident permit, you must first have a Md permit. You can get a non-res permit from a third state that is recognized by Pa. But if all you want to do is shoot on the property, and not carry in general in Pa , than just transport as noted above.

Or you can just open carry if you desire.

CAS_Shooter · Apr 21, 2013

Threeband said:
For now, Pennsylvania still recognizes the Utah non-resident permit, perhaps because Utah has more rigorous training requirements. .

Both Utah and Florida require training. Florida goes a step beyond Utah's requirement in that they also require evidence of shooting as a part of the training and Utah does not.

The reason PA gives for renegotiating the agreement with Florida (which took effect 2/1/13) is that a PA resident could previously get a non-resident Florida permit for carry in PA. The PA AG insisted that PA residents only carry in PA on a PA permit. She changed the reciprocity agreement to specifically say that PA will only accept Florida resident permits, no longer Florida non-resident permits.

Utah has a provision that requires you to have a resident permit from your home state if your state has a reciprocity agreement with Utah. PA has such an agreement with Utah, which means a PA resident could not get a Utah permit unless they already have a PA permit. Which was not the case with Florida.

The reason the PA AG gave for changing the agreement with Florida does not exist with Utah, but it does not mean she still won't manufacture a reason to stop accepting any non-resident permits, which will suck for residents of "may issue" states like MD, NJ, NY, etc. since we essentially cannot get a permit from our own state.

I have a Utah. I hope the AG lets me continue to use it in PA since, for now, my 2A rights are severely limited in Maryland. While I was one of the applicants in the short "stay" window, that clearly in a long gone pipe dream now.

Bikebreath · Apr 21, 2013

There was a big controversy about loaded mags in Maryland and that was cleared up by MD AG here: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=30390

I mention that, because I learned in a NRA class on PPOTH that as a Maryland resident I was not allowed to carry loaded mags from MD into PA, according to PA law. Once I got my Utah CC permit that restriction was lifted.

Ab_Normal · Apr 21, 2013

Bikebreath said:
There was a big controversy about loaded mags in Maryland and that was cleared up by MD AG here: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=30390

I mention that, because I learned in a NRA class on PPOTH that as a Maryland resident I was not allowed to carry loaded mags from MD into PA, according to PA law. Once I got my Utah CC permit that restriction was lifted.

Can you tell me if there is something official in there from Pa. stating that?

sgt23preston · Apr 21, 2013

Boom Boom said:
Keep the guns in locked cases (unloaded, any magazine removed, separate from ammo) in the trunk until you get to your property. Drive to your property like grandma. Follow all rules of the road. Nothing should come up unless you do something dumb, like speeding, running a red light or stop sign, cell phone pasted to ear while driving, etc.

Sgt Preston here...

B I N G O, Life is Simple...

And the correct answer is listed above...

Bikebreath · Apr 21, 2013

Ab_Normal said:
Can you tell me if there is something official in there from Pa. stating that?

No. My instructor from my PPOTH who travels back and forth from MD to PA said that loaded mags any where in my car was a violation without a PA permit or one accepted by PA.

I trust he knows, but sometimes things get fuzzy and interpretations are based on a "better safe than sorry".

Bikebreath · Apr 21, 2013

Ab_Normal said:
Can you tell me if there is something official in there from Pa. stating that?

PM sent

Threeband · Apr 21, 2013

Ab_Normal said:
Or you can just open carry if you desire.

You may only open carry on foot.

Open carry in a vehicle requires an LTCF.

Pennsylvania seems a bit more strict than Maryland about transporting even unloaded secured handguns without an LTCF. Their list of legitimate destinations is shorter, and I think they may be more strict about direct travel.

If the OP plans to transport handguns, even unloaded in the trunk, he might consider getting a Utah permit. It's not a necessity, but it does provide meaningful legal protection, especially if he makes significant detours.

The harsh reality is, every time we transport a handgun here in Maryland ( or in Penn. without an LTCF) we are in a gray area of the law. Even driving directly to the range, we're in a "grayish area". The burden of proof is on you to prove, possibly in a court of law, that you are transporting legally.

ivwarrior · Apr 21, 2013

Here's what you want to know.

18 Pa.C.S. § 6106: Firearms not to be carried without a license said:
(a) Offense defined.--
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.
(2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a [FN1] valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.

(b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:

(snip)

(8) Any person while carrying a firearm which is not loaded and is in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair, sale or appraisal or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police), or to a place of instruction intended to teach the safe handling, use or maintenance of firearms or back or to a location to which the person has been directed to relinquish firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a licensed dealer's place of business for relinquishment pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S § 6108.2 (relating to relinquishment for consignment sale, lawful transfer or safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a location for safekeeping pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108.3 (relating to relinquishment to third party for safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm.

(snip)

(11) Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.

So, if you're going to have a firearm in a vehicle in PA, even unloaded, either be prepared to prove you meet one of the exceptions in the law or get a license to carry, from ANY state.

In the case listed in the OP, section b(8) listed above should cover it, but it's easier to just have a license and be covered under b(11) as having the license is easier to prove.

Obviously, there are other exceptions listed in that section. 16 total, actually. I just posted the two I felt were relevant to the OP, if you want to see the rest, Google the statute.

Right2Carry · Apr 21, 2013

Bean Guy said:
My wife owns land in Huntingdon County in PA, its very rural and is a great place to shoot. Folks there are the opposite of Frosh and O'Mallly. At the same time, police are nosy and I don't want to be talking with PA state police about my handguns if something comes up while I'm enroute. Should I get a non resident carry permit, understand that the sherrif's in PA issue those.

Covered in several other Threads.

I live in Maryland and purchase both a PA and VA hunting license, hunt and shoot with family and friends in both states. It's simple, just follow the State laws on transportation. You can even take a flight on certain airlines. I guess that is why they sell non-resident hunting license.

You must maintain ownership of firearm/s, and continue to enjoy your hobby or sport.

After all, this is America and not the Soviet union going from territory to territory. We do have some freedoms, yet they are under attack in Maryland.

Threeband · Apr 21, 2013

Wow! I thought Pennsylvania was a bit more strict than Maryland, but I didn't realize it was that bad.

Notice the transport law applies to "firearms", which includes that single shot .22 Cricket you bought your daughter for her ninth birthday. Maryland's law only applies to handguns (not even to so-called "assault rifles").

Notice the law begins by making any transport at all a Felony, then introduces an exception reducing it to a misdemeanor, then adds a few limited exceptions for legitimate transport.

Having a Utah permit really does provide legal protection, at least for now.

Ab_Normal · Apr 21, 2013

ivwarrior said:
Here's what you want to know.

So, if you're going to have a firearm in a vehicle in PA, even unloaded, either be prepared to prove you meet one of the exceptions in the law or get a license to carry, from ANY state.

In the case listed in the OP, section b(8) listed above should cover it, but it's easier to just have a license and be covered under b(11) as having the license is easier to prove.

Obviously, there are other exceptions listed in that section. 16 total, actually. I just posted the two I felt were relevant to the OP, if you want to see the rest, Google the statute.

Or invoke FOPA.

platoonDaddy · Apr 21, 2013

Bean Guy said:
My wife owns land in Huntingdon County in PA, its very rural and is a great place to shoot. Folks there are the opposite of Frosh and O'Mallly. At the same time, police are nosy and I don't want to be talking with PA state police about my handguns if something comes up while I'm enroute. Should I get a non resident carry permit, understand that the sherrif's in PA issue those.

Dang, how many out-of-state hunters do you think hit the field for opening day of firearm deer season? Loads of them also carry a sidearm.

Just do your thing! You are reading toooooooooooooooo much into this.

Biggfoot44 · Apr 22, 2013

To really make it confusing , Pa also has a seperate , different handgun permit that is only valid for while hunting and fishing , and to/ from .

Blacksmith101 · Apr 22, 2013

ivwarrior said:
Here's what you want to know.

So, if you're going to have a firearm in a vehicle in PA, even unloaded, either be prepared to prove you meet one of the exceptions in the law or get a license to carry, from ANY state.

In the case listed in the OP, section b(8) listed above should cover it, but it's easier to just have a license and be covered under b(11) as having the license is easier to prove.

Obviously, there are other exceptions listed in that section. 16 total, actually. I just posted the two I felt were relevant to the OP, if you want to see the rest, Google the statute.

You sniped section (4) which probably applies to the OP.

(4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with a firearm, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the firearm is not loaded.

The whole section is posted on the PAFOA site here:
http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes...firearms-not-to-be-carried-without-a-license/

Ab_Normal · Apr 23, 2013

Blacksmith101 said:
You sniped section (4) which probably applies to the OP.

The whole section is posted on the PAFOA site here:
http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes...firearms-not-to-be-carried-without-a-license/

Looks like we had a (snip) OH SNAP!

MD residents taking guns into PA

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