Philly police and Open Carry

alucard0822 · Oct 6, 2010

ezliving said:
I can see you have a conflict with the inconvenient "innocent until proven guilty" thing. Guilt must be proven, not innocence.

Carrying a firearm openly in PA is lawful, even in Philly (with a LTCF.)

The police need "multiple lawsuits and large settlements" before this crap stops.

And, believe it or not, police "rules" must be lawful, even when inconvenient.

fixed it for you.

I do agree with Blaster in one reguard, the police get their policy from their superiors, and should enforce the law and policy as it is written. In this case their superiors happened to come up with a crappy policy, can't fault the boots on the ground for it, but their superiors and the slumlord politicians that come up with it.

swinokur · Oct 6, 2010

guys, my point in posting was not to start an argument but to increase awareness and foster spirited discussion. one reason i like MDS is the civility i find here. that's rare anywhere these days. especially the interwebz

i believe the reason that Philly believes to be legal is because a license is needed that's enough RAS to allow the check.

I dont know the answer and the courts will decide. But at least we know what we're dealing with. before that no one knew.

That's it for me anyway

no worries

RobMoore · Oct 6, 2010

I don't like the "confiscate and unload" part.

With the gun handling skills of the "non gun guy" cops, that policy is just asking for an ND.

Boondock Saint · Oct 6, 2010

Been thinking about this for a bit, and I had a thought:

What if someone was CCing and temporarily exposed their firearm in front of a cop, or even prints? Not brandishing, say reaching up for something on a shelf. If the cop notices it, he's very likely to ask for a permit, right? CC is a lawful activity, yet I doubt very many among us would have a problem asking for the permit.

Also, somewhat separately, I view this as different (rightly/wrongly?) than in a place like VA where no permit is required to OC anywhere in the state. If an officer were to ask me for my ID after seeing me OC in VA, I'd politely decline, as OC comes with no permitting issues attached.

Just my two cents.

JMintzer · Oct 6, 2010

Blaster229 said:
BECAUSE THE LAW TELLS THEM TO DO IT. COPS do not make law, they just try to follow the rules like anyone else at a job. Do you follow the rules at your job? They only articulation they need is that they saw the person carrying a weapon out in the open. Sorry, no suspicion in this case because they see it.

That would not be a terry stop. A terry frisk is when the officer pats a suspect down through their outer clothing to look for a weapon.
Cops don't make laws, they just try to enforce them. Don't shoot the messengers. Geezus

Police Directives are not "THE LAW"...

Once this hits the courts (and it will), it will be shown to be unconstitutional...

Blaster229 · Oct 6, 2010

jonnyl said:
Shooting the messenger would definitely be suspicious

The problem I have isn't with the LEO's following their directives. It's the directives themselves. Particularly this part:

Citizens are allowed to OC for personal defense

If you see a citizen doing this you should investigate, even in the absence of any reason to believe that they may be breaking the law.

I just see that as a conflict.

I get that it's better than before and will probably help keep some folks out of the pokey that may have otherwise had a trip there. But the fact is that Philly doesn't like the OC law and is going to make life difficult for people that don't do things their way. That's just wrong.

But my biggest question............. If all these people carrying OC are within their right (ccw holders), why are they carrying that way? Because anyone worth their salt carries concealed. There is no good tactical (read; self defense) reason to carry exposed. This is a shooting and self defense forum so the excuse " just because they want to carry that way" isn't going to fly.

Carrying exposed is not a deterrent to a criminal who doesn't care.

Blaster229 · Oct 6, 2010

I think the way cops approach people carrying this way makes a HUGE difference. It may not change a person dislike for the law, etc... but softens the "stop" if the cop handles it in a meaningful manner.

Rattlesnake46319 · Oct 6, 2010

Blaster229 said:
But my biggest question............. If all these people carrying OC are within their right (ccw holders), why are they carrying that way? Because anyone worth their salt carries concealed. There is no good tactical (read; self defense) reason to carry exposed. This is a shooting and self defense forum so the excuse " just because they want to carry that way" isn't going to fly.

Carrying exposed is not a deterrent to a criminal who doesn't care.

Because the media would have you believe that guns are evil and will kill people in a second so we all have to lock them away. OR we can openly carry and firearms become an everyday fact of life.

BTW, carrying concealed is not a deterrent to a criminal who doesn't care. The key part there is "lack of caring".

Biggfoot44 · Oct 6, 2010

A. While I agree on the purely tactical aspect, there are others who disagree . Even at that OC can be done in manner to minamize the negatives to the point I'm willing to do so if have a reason.

B. It is part of a goal to "normalize" firearms by showing them to be semicommonly carried by regular, respectable people w/o incident.

Threeband · Oct 6, 2010

The directive, misspellings aside, will perpetuate confusion regarding Pennsylvania law.

“CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE” REFERS TO A SPECIFIC
LICENSE ISSUED TO AN INDIVIDUAL AUTHORIZING THE PERSON
TO CARRY A FIREARM CONCEALED ON HIS OR HER PERSON OR
VEHICLE.

Problem is, Pennsylvania does not issue a “CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE”. It issues a License To Carry Firearms. (LTCF). Concealed is only required in State Parks in Penna. The LTCF is only required for Open Carry in cities over 1,000,000 (= Philly).

Apparently, a lot of police and sheriffs in Pennsylvania are still confused about the law, and believe the licence is for concealed carry only. Calling the LTCF a “CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE” just increases the confusion.

Now that there is this official directive repeatedly referring to this non-existent “CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE”, I can see it's just going to perpetuate confusion among many people.

hvymax · Oct 6, 2010

It sounds like even if you have your permit openly displayed you will be disarmed and detained probably even cuffed until they get done checking out your entire history.

swinokur · Oct 6, 2010

the directive doesn't say that

IIRC he has a legal right to cuff you for his safety

Blaster229 · Oct 6, 2010

swinokur said:
the directive doesn't say that

IIRC he has a legal right to cuff you for his safety

Although it is true someone can be cuffed while being detained, it may not be the right thing to do in this situation. HIGHLY unlikely it is a situation that will break bad.

Blaster229 · Oct 6, 2010

hvymax said:
It sounds like even if you have your permit openly displayed you will be disarmed and detained probably even cuffed until they get done checking out your entire history.

Openly displayed?? Do you wear it around your neck for all to see? Or on your back like a hunting license? Define that.

hvymax · Oct 6, 2010

They will probably do it just because they can.

Blaster229 · Oct 6, 2010

Rattlesnake46319 said:
Because the media would have you believe that guns are evil and will kill people in a second so we all have to lock them away. OR we can openly carry and firearms become an everyday fact of life.

BTW, carrying concealed is not a deterrent to a criminal who doesn't care. The key part there is "lack of caring".

Again, what is a good, tactical reason for a civilian to carry a weapon out in the open? Why be at a disadvantage or make yourself a target?

hvymax · Oct 6, 2010

Blaster229 said:
Openly displayed?? Do you wear it around your neck for all to see? Or on your back like a hunting license? Define that.

Belt ID holder,lanyard etc. If the gun is in the open why not the permit?

Rattlesnake46319 · Oct 6, 2010

Blaster229 said:
Again, what is a good, tactical reason for a civilian to carry a weapon out in the open? Why be at a disadvantage or make yourself a target?

You didn't ask for a "good" reason in your previous post. You simply asked for a reason. I gave you one. Biggfoot did a far better job of saying what I was getting at. http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=816252&postcount=49

Blaster229 · Oct 6, 2010

Boondock Saint said:
Been thinking about this for a bit, and I had a thought:

What if someone was CCing and temporarily exposed their firearm in front of a cop, or even prints? Not brandishing, say reaching up for something on a shelf. If the cop notices it, he's very likely to ask for a permit, right? CC is a lawful activity, yet I doubt very many among us would have a problem asking for the permit.

Also, somewhat separately, I view this as different (rightly/wrongly?) than in a place like VA where no permit is required to OC anywhere in the state. If an officer were to ask me for my ID after seeing me OC in VA, I'd politely decline, as OC comes with no permitting issues attached.

Just my two cents.

Spot on about Va and no permit requirement for open carry.

The opening of a vest or jacket during a movement does not constitute an open carry. These situations is where a cop's training and experience comes into play. Judgement call. Having been an LEO in Texas where they carry, I have been in many of those scenarios and didn't approach anyone who had their shirt open or print. It is a carry state and there is no reason to believe they DID NOT have a permit. I have been a cop in MD where I have seen guns flash from under cover and I did approach and ask. MD has a limited ccw so it wouldn't be out of the ordinary or "harrassment" to ask one if they were a cop or ccw holder. You just have to have tact at these times. Especially with such a sensitive subject.

Blaster229 · Oct 6, 2010

Rattlesnake46319 said:
You didn't ask for a "good" reason in your previous post. You simply asked for a reason. I gave you one. Biggfoot did a far better job of saying what I was getting at. http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=816252&postcount=49

So, what you(he) are saying is that you would open carry to try and "normalize" guns at the risk of your own and other's safety. Gotcha

So if we are getting down to semantics and digging deep now.......... I assume you practice your retentions skills daily, as often as you practice firing and scenarios, right?

Philly police and Open Carry

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

For great Justice

In a State of Bliss

The Mad Scientist

Ultimate Member

Hoarding Douche Waffle

God loves you, I don't.

God loves you, I don't.

Curmidget

Ultimate Member

The M1 Does My Talking

Banned

In a State of Bliss

God loves you, I don't.

God loves you, I don't.

Banned

God loves you, I don't.

Banned

Curmidget

God loves you, I don't.

God loves you, I don't.

Users who are viewing this thread

Log in

Forum statistics