Need facts rebutting my church

knastera · Oct 18, 2016

mesmithwesson said:
And then there's this:

http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/10/...-hillary-clinton-catholic-church-john-podesta

Which means that its happening in the UMC too.

Father Morris, pardon the pun, is a straight shooter. While I might not agree with him on every issue of doctrine, I appreciate his steadfast commitment to the truth, regardless of public opinion.

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RoadDawg · Oct 19, 2016

T-Man said:
I support the Constitution and believe that the Bible supports self defense but frankly it is not the core message of Jesus. He willingly died rather then self defend after all.

If a church is preaching Jesus' Gospel and loving each other like He commanded I am not going to get angry with them if they are anti/gun. I'll disagree of course. Usually it is just the symptom of a bigger problem though.

I see this statement used many times. And while on the surface of it there is truth. Sadly the whole truth is missed by those who either miss it or are simply not willing to see it.

Christ did not simply "lay down and die" for us. Rather, he allowed himself to be killed, in a most violent and abasing manner, as a sacrifice for us. In his submission to it for our cause, he fought against everything that is evil. To present Christ as a pacifist who simply laid down and gave up, is wrong. He was our champion. The violence visited upon his body was so much more than the notion of simply lying down and peacefully going to sleep in death.

I fully believe that Christ intends for us to present a defense against the same evil which HE fought so violently in the manner of his death. Yes... he WILLINGLY went to his death FOR US... But, in doing so by the manner which he suffered... He was in fact FIGHTING HELL for US.

I believe that the UMC and other larger "Religious Organizations" have been infiltrated by SJWs who have risen to positions of power within and are using the strength of the organizations' numbers to further their own political agenda and NOT to the furtherance of ANY Christian message.

The "home office" is no longer a source of "Christian Leadership". And no self respecting Christian should be forced to listen to their non Christian message.

d33rhunt3r · Oct 19, 2016

5.56blaster said:
This and other "views" of the UMC are why I left it and all other churches. God doesn't need me to sit a hour a week in a building to be a true follower of his word.

I've gone the same way. Although I will still attend a service on occasion with my grandparents(Lutheran). Fortunately the pastor is very level-headed, pro LEO, unknown about 2A, though.

knastera · Oct 19, 2016

Conversely, my church has a security team to protect the congregation and allows me to use the facilities to teach my NRA Refuse To Be A Victim classes.

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T-Man · Oct 19, 2016

5.56blaster said:
This and other "views" of the UMC are why I left it and all other churches. God doesn't need me to sit a hour a week in a building to be a true follower of his word.

d33rhunt3r said:
I've gone the same way. Although I will still attend a service on occasion with my grandparents(Lutheran). Fortunately the pastor is very level-headed, pro LEO, unknown about 2A, though.

We are called the Body of Christ for a reason - we are all connected and we are all needed. To have the body work the best, for the sake of the body and the member we need to work together and if you look at the Bible examples of New Testament believers they are always gathering together to worship. Why? Because it is good for us - when we are alone we are not forced to learn to love others even th annoying others. Loving others who stink is what Jesus did. We also have no accountability - your wife is not going to force you to stop being a cranky old coot or stop looking at porn like being around other brothers in the Lord particularly those who will call you on it like we are supposed to.

There are a lot of churches out there that are lost, that have gone off the rails and that I would never attend - many of the traditional mainline denominations are way lost. Churches as bickering social clubs are a waste of time and they will answer to God. But God sets out our examples - Jesus and His disciples, the churches of Ephesus and Corinth, always on groups. Doesn't have to look a certain way, there is everything from high church with robes and chants to people meeting at the food court at the mall, but the structure contemplates a group.

2SAM22 · Oct 19, 2016

tball said:
It would be interesting to ask why they weren't focusing on abortion. Abortion kills a heck of a lot more innocent(s) a year.

BOOM!

Minuteman · Oct 20, 2016

https://www.youtube.com/user/fxhummel1

pcfixer · Oct 24, 2016

very good video on "Warrior Mindset". Few know what that really is!

US Army Retired....

Engine4 · Jun 17, 2019

So, my local church is Methodist. Yeah, I know how anti gun & liberal the top level is. That's why any contributions I make go strictly to my church itself (like roof funds, repair funds, etc). Anyway, the latest controversy is that the General Conference (top level), upheld the Book of Discipline teaching where homosexuals cannot be given any pastoral level promotions. Ok, good so far. But in true liberal fashion, the Baltimore Washington Conference (which includes all churches around here), is ignoring & resisting the laws of Methodism & still giving avowed gay preachers leadership roles. What this comes down to is, I am now going to push for a gun raffle as a fund raiser for my church. I've gotten flack in the past when I've proposed this, but now since it's been shown that we should push for what we believe in, what's good for them is good for us. I'll let you know if I'm successful.

AssMan · Jun 17, 2019

Engine4 said:
So, my local church is Methodist. Yeah, I know how anti gun & liberal the top level is. That's why any contributions I make go strictly to my church itself (like roof funds, repair funds, etc). Anyway, the latest controversy is that the General Conference (top level), upheld the Book of Discipline teaching where homosexuals cannot be given any pastoral level promotions. Ok, good so far. But in true liberal fashion, the Baltimore Washington Conference (which includes all churches around here), is ignoring & resisting the laws of Methodism & still giving avowed gay preachers leadership roles. What this comes down to is, I am now going to push for a gun raffle as a fund raiser for my church. I've gotten flack in the past when I've proposed this, but now since it's been shown that we should push for what we believe in, what's good for them is good for us. I'll let you know if I'm successful.

Good luck! :thumbsup:

PowPow · Jun 17, 2019

I missed this thread the first time around. Good stuff.

T-Man said:
http://pastorunlikely.com/2016/09/15/on-self-defense-a-study-in-context/

Bible thoughts on guns.

Thanks for writing this, Tom. I know Luke 22:36 is often quoted and commonly understood that way. If we continue reading down through 22:38, however, I think verses 37 & 38 open up a completely different perspective. It shows to me that Jesus completely disagrees with their literal interpretation of his commands in 22:36. The Word of God is sharper than any sword, and His kingdom will not advance by human swords. I don't believe 22:36 supports the case for self-defense for this reason. Thankfully, God provided us with everything else you mentioned as sufficient biblical case for self-defense.

The real gem on this link is the discussion that it inspired in the comment section.

Minuteman said:

Awesomeness!

T-Man · Jun 17, 2019

PowPow said:
I missed this thread the first time around. Good stuff.

Thanks for writing this, Tom. I know Luke 22:36 is often quoted and commonly understood that way. If we continue reading down through 22:38, however, I think verses 37 & 38 open up a completely different perspective. It shows to me that Jesus completely disagrees with their literal interpretation of his commands in 22:36. The Word of God is sharper than any sword, and His kingdom will not advance by human swords. I don't believe 22:36 supports the case for self-defense for this reason. Thankfully, God provided us with everything else you mentioned as sufficient biblical case for self-defense.

The real gem on this link is the discussion that it inspired in the comment section.

Awesomeness!

Now I have that song stuck in my head.

Yeah, you could be right but to me Jesus seems to be talking about concrete things in the verse that the disciples will need after He is crucified. He mentions a knapsack or purse depending on translation as well so it doesn’t seem to makes that He would be literal and then symbolic in the course of a few words. David Guzik is one of my favorite commentators and he writes:

But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack: The intent of Jesus seems to be, “I am on the point of leaving you, and when I am gone, you must use common sense means for provision and protection.” Such practical considerations were not needed before, but were needed now.

The following verses have been debated for a long time. One of the popes believed the 2 swords are symbolic for the secular justice system and the religious authorities. Others argue the disciples were not getting the point about simple preparations for the future and presenting their swords to fight for Him - still stuck on Him as conquering King....and that is why Jesus responds with essentially saying Enough of this nonsense.

It is an interesting question.

TexDefender · Jun 18, 2019

I always thought of the Bible as what guided me to use the gun or not.

pcfixer · Jun 19, 2019

Engine4 said:
So the Methodist Church is having a "Faith & Guns Forum" in DC next month.

https://salsa3.salsalabs.com/o/50192/p/salsa/event/common/public/?event_KEY=90577&utm_source=e-connection+%7C+Oct.+17%2C+2016&utm_campaign=This+Week%27s+e-Connection+%7C+6.8.2015&utm_medium=email

As you can see, the speakers are all anti gun, even down to having Everytown for Gun Safety Survivors. They tout the number killed so far this year by guns as 10,751. Although I'd love to attend & present the truth, I am no good at public speaking & would only represent our side as a bumbling fool. What I want to do is put down in writing to submit to them a well spoken & fact based editorial pointing out the error of their ways. Doing a search on Google for facts on firearm deaths simply points to all antis (imagine that). What resources can I use to that gives me the research I need?

“But of course, when they ask for a "lead from the church," most people mean they want the clergy to put out a political program. That is silly. The clergy are those particular people within the whole church who have been specially trained and set aside to look after what concerns us as creatures who are going to live forever. And we are asking them to do a quite different job, for which they have not been trained. The job is really on us- on the laymen.”
― C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

The church and the clergy have no business in politics and gun control. Preachers and clergy need to be concerned about spiritual well being of the church they tend to the flock. In reality its non of their business.

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