AAR: SpartanCore "Charon" Vehicle Tactics Class - Fredericksburg, VA (5/23/2021)

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  • erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    At the blog:
    https://thehebrewhammer.net/2021/05/24/spartancore-charon-vehicle-borne-tactics-aar/

    I was fairly critical in a few places - justly so in my mind - but I have to admit that running a simulated parking lot was a real game changer in terms of really understanding how a real life situation would go down. Crucible is an amazing place to train at.
     

    hogarth

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2009
    2,504
    Nice to see Kelly McCann's old facility getting some good use.

    As for the class......I'm SO happy I did most of my vehicle work with Will Petty, Mike Pannone, Paul Howe, and John Murphy. Especially Petty. Wow.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Nice to see Kelly McCann's old facility getting some good use.

    As for the class......I'm SO happy I did most of my vehicle work with Will Petty, Mike Pannone, Paul Howe, and John Murphy. Especially Petty. Wow.
    Well, what can I say, you take what you can get.
     

    hogarth

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2009
    2,504
    Well, what can I say, you take what you can get.

    I understand you have to work within certain parameters. I think you might be better off contacting Murphy and lobbying him for a Sunday Vehicle class.

    I am not the risk-taker you are in training with so many new instructors/companies. I prefer to bet on sure-things. That whimsical attitude toward safety might have had me walking out before the class really got underway, especially when I contrast it with Will Petty's now-legendary "legacy" speech.

    I'm also amazed how much this crew seemed to cover in one day and with 24 students. In Pannone's class we had about that many, perhaps fewer, and we spent much of day one on the flat range and otherwise working component skills (sometimes dry) that would be needed once we were in the cars. Lots of focus on safety.

    I'm also not sure what was up with the photo of the bullet hole in the fender. Just above that is reference to shooting through side windows. So did that round to through a side window and then into the next car's
    fender? And why were you surprised a 9mm round went through a fender?

    Overall, it's nice to see some action on Jack Ellington Rd, and hopefully you took home some tidbits from it.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    I understand you have to work within certain parameters. I think you might be better off contacting Murphy and lobbying him for a Sunday Vehicle class.

    I am not the risk-taker you are in training with so many new instructors/companies. I prefer to bet on sure-things. That whimsical attitude toward safety might have had me walking out before the class really got underway, especially when I contrast it with Will Petty's now-legendary "legacy" speech.

    I'm also amazed how much this crew seemed to cover in one day and with 24 students. In Pannone's class we had about that many, perhaps fewer, and we spent much of day one on the flat range and otherwise working component skills (sometimes dry) that would be needed once we were in the cars. Lots of focus on safety.
    You definitely would have liked the TOC version of this course better. But I am with you on safety. I definitely had some serious misgivings after hearing that speech at the front. I do think they tried to be safe, but I also think they overextended on a first class of this type.

    As for training with newer entities... I feel like it's a service to the community combined with trying to find that diamond in the rough. Sometimes you get these guys, who weren't bad, but I think didn't quite calibrate the course to civilian expectations. Or maybe they were a little too focused on experience vs skills. Someone commented about the lack of timer use in class, and I don't think they were wrong.

    But - and this is just me - I don't necessarily need to run up a ton of flat range time in a course. I know how to shoot a pistol well enough, and I know how to get better doing that. What I don't know is car skills, and that's why I'm at the class. Perhaps there's merit in the idea of running up everyone's flat range skills in an open enrollment class first, but I personally just don't need that. I am sure Mike Pannone would have things to teach me, he's a legend, but I've been instructed by enough other people with M and GM next to their names that I feel confident in what I'm doing. I went one-handed during the VIP drill and was nailing 20yd targets while controlling the VIP, which I admit was flashy ********, but it was also flashy ******** I could do on demand. A lot of people were actually bracing their pistols off the hood of the car, which was a real wince moment for me, too, because it revealed just how uncertain they were of making longer-range shots semi-reliably. I guess if you have to do that in a real gunfight, you gotta do it, but if SpartanCore had demonstrated how bullets skip off hoods and trunks, the students might not have done that.

    Now if we're talking about dry-running the subject matter specific stuff, yes, I am 100% on board with you.

    ETA: if a core critique is "this is level 2 course material and they skipped all the level 1 stuff", yes, I am with you. I did as well as I did because of the vehicle course I took two weeks prior.

    I'm also not sure what was up with the photo of the bullet hole in the fender. Just above that is reference to shooting through side windows. So did that round to through a side window and then into the next car's
    fender? And why were you surprised a 9mm round went through a fender?
    I think it was the contrast between that and what didn't make it through, combined with the fact that it wasn't FMJ. Angles are everything in a fight in/around cars, as you know better than I do. I haven't spent a day shooting up cars with various ammo to really explore the subject matter, albeit that would be a rather fun and educational exercise.

    The parking lot thing was really a game changer for me in terms of how I saw the subject matter. So as tough as I am on these guys in spots, they did bring something very new to the table for me. Not sure I've seen pictures of a lot of other guys hauling eight cars into their vehicles class, ever.
     

    hogarth

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2009
    2,504
    You definitely would have liked the TOC version of this course better. But I am with you on safety. I definitely had some serious misgivings after hearing that speech at the front. I do think they tried to be safe, but I also think they overextended on a first class of this type.

    As for training with newer entities... I feel like it's a service to the community combined with trying to find that diamond in the rough. Sometimes you get these guys, who weren't bad, but I think didn't quite calibrate the course to civilian expectations. Or maybe they were a little too focused on experience vs skills. Someone commented about the lack of timer use in class, and I don't think they were wrong.

    But - and this is just me - I don't necessarily need to run up a ton of flat range time in a course. I know how to shoot a pistol well enough, and I know how to get better doing that. What I don't know is car skills, and that's why I'm at the class. Perhaps there's merit in the idea of running up everyone's flat range skills in an open enrollment class first, but I personally just don't need that. I am sure Mike Pannone would have things to teach me, he's a legend, but I've been instructed by enough other people with M and GM next to their names that I feel confident in what I'm doing. I went one-handed during the VIP drill and was nailing 20yd targets while controlling the VIP, which I admit was flashy ********, but it was also flashy ******** I could do on demand. A lot of people were actually bracing their pistols off the hood of the car, which was a real wince moment for me, too, because it revealed just how uncertain they were of making longer-range shots semi-reliably. I guess if you have to do that in a real gunfight, you gotta do it, but if SpartanCore had demonstrated how bullets skip off hoods and trunks, the students might not have done that.

    Now if we're talking about dry-running the subject matter specific stuff, yes, I am 100% on board with you.

    ETA: if a core critique is "this is level 2 course material and they skipped all the level 1 stuff", yes, I am with you. I did as well as I did because of the vehicle course I took two weeks prior.


    I think it was the contrast between that and what didn't make it through, combined with the fact that it wasn't FMJ. Angles are everything in a fight in/around cars, as you know better than I do. I haven't spent a day shooting up cars with various ammo to really explore the subject matter, albeit that would be a rather fun and educational exercise.

    The parking lot thing was really a game changer for me in terms of how I saw the subject matter. So as tough as I am on these guys in spots, they did bring something very new to the table for me. Not sure I've seen pictures of a lot of other guys hauling eight cars into their vehicles class, ever.

    All of that makes perfect sense.

    Couple of other thoughts, for me personally:

    1. My blog exists for others' benefit, but the time and $ (especially the time part) I spend on training is all about ME and improving MYself. Which is why I now only bet on sure-things, at least in terms of instructors.

    2. In Pannone's class, the flat range stuff we did, after an initial warm-up, was all about component skills. How do you move around obstacles with a pistol? A carbine? How do you move around people with a pistol? A carbine? So it wasn't standing in lines and shooting. It was making sure people can be safe before we stick them inside vehicles and have them shoot.

    3. The parking lot idea from the class you attended was a neat concept. We did similar stuff in Howe's classes since his facility has TWO "parking lots" full of derelict vehicles (probably 30 or more cars total). But for a traveling trainer I think the most I've seen is 4 or so vehicles.

    4. Re: a timer. I don't think I've ever been to a "tactics" class that used timers. It just doesn't make sense for an open enrollment class where you'll never get enough runs through a shoothouse or vehicle or other problems to get good enough to compete with each other anyway. When I did shoothouse at Alliance there were people there who had done the class 5 or more times before and they were still slow as molasses. I didn't see a timer in that class, either of Howe's classes, Petty's class, Pannone' vehicle class, Craig Douglas' AMIS, or any FoF stuff I've done.

    5. Like you, I mostly had enough of standing in lines and blazing away. Once I reached a certain level of skill (which you have surpassed, from everything I've seen), I transitioned to more of these types of classes. I can always work on speed and accuracy, but application of those skills across settings is kinda where I am now. Plus working on the physical elements.

    Looking forward to more from you.
     

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