Sig365 slide cut and optic question

knastera · Apr 2, 2021

hogarth said:
We're 20 years into the 21st Century. Feel free to join it anytime.

Unless the OP is going to pocket carry the 365 (where the optic will severely hinder concealment and the draw), there's nothing wrong with utilizing an optic on a carry gun.

Why the need for insults? It is so childish. That's why I stayed away from this board for so long.

There is nothing wrong with using an optic. I never said there was. I have optics on two of my guns. What I'm saying is that it's really easy to use an optic at the range and not so easy in CQC. The reality is that in a CQC situation most people will be doing point shooting. If the OP is already skilled in that and already has lots of ammo to practice with and is holster certified at a range, then by all means, put an optic on the gun if it makes him happy. I'll tell you this, optics can fail but trained and maintained marksmanship skills don't.

Occam · Apr 2, 2021

FWIW, I’m currently test driving an alternate slide on my P365 carry. This is a pre-milled slide with a ROMEOZero already installed by SIG.

So I can convert back to irons-only config any time by just popping this slide off, and putting other on.

57 year old eyes, and starting to recognize the beauty of both-eyes-open shooting with an RD. The Romeo doesn’t seem to be a big hangup for me, but we’ll see. And yes, I expect that if I ever had to use the gun - I hope I never ever do - that level of accuracy is less likely to be necessary. Even so.

hogarth · Apr 2, 2021

knastera said:
Why the need for insults? It is so childish. That's why I stayed away from this board for so long.

There is nothing wrong with using an optic. I never said there was. I have optics on two of my guns. What I'm saying is that it's really easy to use an optic at the range and not so easy in CQC. The reality is that in a CQC situation most people will be doing point shooting. If the OP is already skilled in that and already has lots of ammo to practice with and is holster certified at a range, then by all means, put an optic on the gun if it makes him happy. I'll tell you this, optics can fail but trained and maintained marksmanship skills don't.

You most certainly said that there IS something wrong with using an optic for concealed carry. Again:

"My two cents: why are you putting a sight on a carry gun when you will never use the sight in an armed encounter? Do what you wish, but if I was spending that kind of money, I’d invest it in a lesson in point shooting, getting holster certified, and as much range ammo as I could get."

Couple of things to consider.

1. Cost. While cost is an issue, right now, with ammo being so high (if it can be found at all), the cost of an optic/milling/etc. as compared with the cost of ammo is not nearly the situation it was 13 months ago. The last cases of 9mm I bought, 13 months ago, were $170 shipped. So, for an optic + milling + refinishing (if the OP goes that route), you're looking at several cases of ammo. Not so much anymore. Maybe 1 or 1.5 cases.

2. Handgun optics on FIGHTING guns are rapidly becoming ubiquitous. Which is why so many companies are offering slides set up as such. They know customers will send slides off the Jagerwerks, ATEi, etc., so the gun manufacturers are looking at it as "why not do the work for the customer and suck up that $?"

3. I'm not sure how YOU define "point shooting" (since everyone seems to have their own definition these days), but one of the great things about optics is it allows the user to stay "target focused", which is great for a number of reasons (liability, hitting moving targets, etc.).

4. Having an optic does not mean one MUST use it any more than having irons means one MUST use them. So if one is truly entangled and shooting from retention, the sighting system doesn't matter, and all the optic user has "lost" is some $ as compared with a stock gun. But if the self-defense scenario involves more distance (and, despite what YOU claimed in your first post I quoted above, they CAN and I can point you to MANY real-life self-defense shootings that involved distances well beyond 10 yards), the optic will really shine as compared with irons.

5. Some older, less-likely-to-change instructors, even if they don't use optics themselves, are finally starting to come around to the fact that pistol mounted optics are here to stay. I mean, even Paul Howe, who often uses only irons on his ARs, is offering pistol-optics-specific classes!

6. Vision issues. Enough said.

7. I know MANY people who were in defensive handgun shootings at relatively close quarters (7 yards and in) who used their sights, and used them well (i.e, they won, bad guy lost). The bumpy things on top of the slide (or the optics) are NOT there by accident. In the old days when sights were miniscule or non-existent, unsighted fire made sense. But with the FO, hi viz, and other sights currently available, there's no need to be anachronistic.

And, I will note here, I say ALL of this as someone who owns a number of handguns, NONE of which have optics on them. Yet. I used to have a Glock 19 with RMR but sold it. In fact, mine was, as far as I know, the first one that Mike Pannone ever shot (he borrowed mine to try out during a class back in 2014). Guess who now is mostly shooting pistols with optics!

knastera · Apr 2, 2021

hogarth said:
You most certainly said that there IS something wrong with using an optic for concealed carry. Again:

"My two cents: why are you putting a sight on a carry gun when you will never use the sight in an armed encounter? Do what you wish, but if I was spending that kind of money, I’d invest it in a lesson in point shooting, getting holster certified, and as much range ammo as I could get."

Couple of things to consider.

1. Cost. While cost is an issue, right now, with ammo being so high (if it can be found at all), the cost of an optic/milling/etc. as compared with the cost of ammo is not nearly the situation it was 13 months ago. The last cases of 9mm I bought, 13 months ago, were $170 shipped. So, for an optic + milling + refinishing (if the OP goes that route), you're looking at several cases of ammo. Not so much anymore. Maybe 1 or 1.5 cases.

2. Handgun optics on FIGHTING guns are rapidly becoming ubiquitous. Which is why so many companies are offering slides set up as such. They know customers will send slides off the Jagerwerks, ATEi, etc., so the gun manufacturers are looking at it as "why not do the work for the customer and suck up that $?"

3. I'm not sure how YOU define "point shooting" (since everyone seems to have their own definition these days), but one of the great things about optics is it allows the user to stay "target focused", which is great for a number of reasons (liability, hitting moving targets, etc.).

4. Having an optic does not mean one MUST use it any more than having irons means one MUST use them. So if one is truly entangled and shooting from retention, the sighting system doesn't matter, and all the optic user has "lost" is some $ as compared with a stock gun. But if the self-defense scenario involves more distance (and, despite what YOU claimed in your first post I quoted above, they CAN and I can point you to MANY real-life self-defense shootings that involved distances well beyond 10 yards), the optic will really shine as compared with irons.

5. Some older, less-likely-to-change instructors, even if they don't use optics themselves, are finally starting to come around to the fact that pistol mounted optics are here to stay. I mean, even Paul Howe, who often uses only irons on his ARs, is offering pistol-optics-specific classes!

6. Vision issues. Enough said.

7. I know MANY people who were in defensive handgun shootings at relatively close quarters (7 yards and in) who used their sights, and used them well (i.e, they won, bad guy lost). The bumpy things on top of the slide (or the optics) are NOT there by accident. In the old days when sights were miniscule or non-existent, unsighted fire made sense. But with the FO, hi viz, and other sights currently available, there's no need to be anachronistic.

And, I will note here, I say ALL of this as someone who owns a number of handguns, NONE of which have optics on them. Yet. I used to have a Glock 19 with RMR but sold it. In fact, mine was, as far as I know, the first one that Mike Pannone ever shot (he borrowed mine to try out during a class back in 2014). Guess who now is mostly shooting pistols with optics!

Good bye. Some people like to discuss and some people like to argue. Sadly, you are in the latter group. Don't bother replying. It is people like you that led me to leave the first time. I like taking with adults that have adult conversations. That is not you.

hogarth · Apr 2, 2021

knastera said:
Good bye. Some people like to discuss and some people like to argue. Sadly, you are in the latter group. Don't bother replying. It is people like you that led me to leave the first time. I like taking with adults that have adult conversations. That is not you.

So seven well-laid out, research-based reasons why pistol mounted optics on defensive handguns are useful is somehow being childish? Seems to me that someone just ran home to cry to momma, and it wasn't me.

You'll also notice that I don't feel the need to list my many "credentials" in my Sig line as a way to try to convince people of my "qualifications", because I don't need to. The rationale I outlined speaks for itself.

John from MD · Apr 2, 2021

Since this thread popped back up, I guess I'll join in. I have lasers on all my carry guns. Not so much for me, but for my wife who due to health issues, can't use sights but can focus on a dot. Since I always have a pistol on me, she can grab whatever I have at the time and use it. Adding optics has only come up as I find that Crimson Trace lasers are starting to have issues and the company isn't interested in supporting older products. Optics are, IMHO, made beefier than lasers and basically perform the same function.

As Hogarth stated, " Vision issues. Enough said." vision issues is what it is all about.

Blaster229 · Apr 3, 2021

I am a point shooting fan. That is, your first and or 2nd shot may be that (especially firing from retention/bent elbow coming out of the holster), but follow up shots will require some type of sighting method. Certainly not going to point shoot multiple targets. I won't walk 5 or 6 shots from the sternum up to the face without sighting.
I just got a Hellcat and put a Swamp Fox mini optic on it. I'm still teaching myself, and maybe I'll come around to it, maybe not. I think I just got it to see what all the hype is about. So far, I haven't shot with it enough to hype it up or not.

John from MD · Apr 3, 2021

Blaster229 said:
I am a point shooting fan. That is, your first and or 2nd shot may be that (especially firing from retention/bent elbow coming out of the holster), but follow up shots will require some type of sighting method. Certainly not going to point shoot multiple targets. I won't walk 5 or 6 shots from the sternum up to the face without sighting.
I just got a Hellcat and put a Swamp Fox mini optic on it. I'm still teaching myself, and maybe I'll come around to it, maybe not. I think I just got it to see what all the hype is about. So far, I haven't shot with it enough to hype it up or not.

Didn't you get a Sig 365 a little while ago? If not disregard, chalk it up to being stir crazy. :lol:

Is your issue acquiring the dot as you bring the pistol on target? I have a couple of game pistols with optics and it usually takes me a couple rounds to get used to it again. Not good for CC.

That now has me thinking about the Leupold Deltapoint micro sight. Ugly as hell but, it being round, will act like a Ghost Ring sight and may be faster.

https://www.leupold.com/blog/post/introducing-the-deltapoint-micro

outrider58 · Apr 3, 2021

John from MD said:
Didn't you get a Sig 365 a little while ago? If not disregard, chalk it up to being stir crazy.

Is your issue acquiring the dot as you bring the pistol on target? I have a couple of game pistols with optics and it usually takes me a couple rounds to get used to it again. Not good for CC.

That now has me thinking about the Leupold Deltapoint micro sight. Ugly as hell but, it being round, will act like a Ghost Ring sight and may be faster.

https://www.leupold.com/blog/post/introducing-the-deltapoint-micro

There was a recent thread on where to put the dot in relation to iron sights on a pistol red dot. The "experts" disagreed with my method for placing the dot. I started out with suppressor height iron sights for use of suppressors. Adding a red dot, it only made sense to "lollypop" the dot over the front sight blade. Being a red dot SBR guy and the co-witnessing there of, it only made sense. Back to pistols; now as I present the pistol, I am no longer looking at the iron sights. The dot immediately appears and the first round is flying as I push the pistol out. Now, if the sight should go down, I might scramble, momentarily to find my backup sights, but they are always going to be there.

John from MD · Apr 3, 2021

outrider58 said:
There was a recent thread on where to put the dot in relation to iron sights on a pistol red dot. The "experts" disagreed with my method for placing the dot. I started out with suppressor height iron sights for use of suppressors. Adding a red dot, it only made sense to "lollypop" the dot over the front sight blade. Being a red dot SBR guy and the co-witnessing there of, it only made sense. Back to pistols; now as I present the pistol, I am no longer looking at the iron sights. The dot immediately appears and the first round is flying as I push the pistol out. Now, if the sight should go down, I might scramble, momentarily to find my backup sights, but they are always going to be there.

That works great for a game gun. I don't think you will have suppressor height sights on a carry gun. Of course you may be James Bond in your day job and carry as suppressor with you. :rolleyes:

outrider58 · Apr 4, 2021

John from MD said:
That works great for a game gun. I don't think you will have suppressor height sights on a carry gun. Of course you may be James Bond in your day job and carry as suppressor with you.

You might be surprised to find how many people EDC similar rigs.

hogarth · Apr 4, 2021

outrider58 said:
You might be surprised to find how many people EDC similar rigs.

Yep. When I had an RMR on a Glock 19, I had suppressor sights on it as a backup, as regular sights were too low to be seen thru the RMR. Its pretty much standard practice. I don't own any suppressors.

outrider58 · Jan 14, 2022

I just got my G48 slide back from Battle Werx and am very happy. Since they didn't offer a sight cut for a SwampFox Sentinel, per se, I emailed them and they require me to send the sight along with the slide to ensure a proper fit. It took me a while to talk myself into that, but I finally gave in.

Turn around time was great(as had been my previous experience with these people). They emailed me the day they received the parts and again, the day that they shipped it back. Six days turnaround. All in all, I sent it out via UPS on 4 Jan. and got it back today, the 14 th. 10 days door to door. The fit is perfect.

rbird7282 · Jan 14, 2022

outrider58 said:
I just got my G48 slide back from Battle Werx and am very happy. Since they didn't offer a sight cut for a SwampFox Sentinel, per se, I emailed them and they require me to send the sight along with the slide to ensure a proper fit. It took me a while to talk myself into that, but I finally gave in.

Turn around time was great(as had been my previous experience with these people). They emailed me the day they received the parts and again, the day that they shipped it back. Six days turnaround. All in all, I sent it out via UPS on 4 Jan. and got it back today, the 14 th. 10 days door to door. The fit is perfect.

Sweet!

woodline · Jan 14, 2022

John from MD said:
That works great for a game gun. I don't think you will have suppressor height sights on a carry gun. Of course you may be James Bond in your day job and carry as suppressor with you.

I actually do have a gemtech Aurora II I keep around sometimes. I have a holster that works with it attached to my Sig P365 too. Specific ammo for that setup as well.

I’m probably about as likely to need it as my pistol, so why not? Doesn’t hurt anything.

woodline · Jan 14, 2022

outrider58 said:
I just got my G48 slide back from Battle Werx and am very happy. Since they didn't offer a sight cut for a SwampFox Sentinel, per se, I emailed them and they require me to send the sight along with the slide to ensure a proper fit. It took me a while to talk myself into that, but I finally gave in.

Turn around time was great(as had been my previous experience with these people). They emailed me the day they received the parts and again, the day that they shipped it back. Six days turnaround. All in all, I sent it out via UPS on 4 Jan. and got it back today, the 14 th. 10 days door to door. The fit is perfect.

Cool setup, I bet you’ll really like it.

John from MD · Jan 15, 2022

fbi_surveillance_van said:
I actually do have a gemtech Aurora II I keep around sometimes. I have a holster that works with it attached to my Sig P365 too. Specific ammo for that setup as well.

I’m probably about as likely to need it as my pistol, so why not? Doesn’t hurt anything.

Just a little chain yanking. Considering what I have carried over the years, yours is pretty reasonable. :lol:

outrider58 · Jan 15, 2022

fbi_surveillance_van said:
Cool setup, I bet you’ll really like it.

We'll see. The LED emission is a bit slower than what I'm used to. Hopefully that won't be a giant issue. I try to keep an open mind from gun to gun. Instead of being better or worse, I try to convince myself that it's just different. I do love the feedback you get from a red dot on a pistol. I dry fire this gun every day. Now, with the red dot, it made me realize I need a lot more finger on the trigger to hold the dot on target through the trigger press.

woodline · Jan 15, 2022

John from MD said:
Just a little chain yanking. Considering what I have carried over the years, yours is pretty reasonable.

You never know what will come in handy, haha. My truck gun is a suppressed Draco AK pistol. Probably seems unreasonable to many, right up until a friend called to ask me to quietly euthanize a deer with a badly broken leg that had wandered onto his property. Dunno what happened to it, but it wasn’t going to live long. Half starved, leg hanging by a thread of sinew, clearly infected. The sheriff’s office gave me permission to put it out of its misery, but apparently his neighbors are PETA people or something and have made trouble for another neighbor over a similar situation in the past . . . Problem solved, quietly.

woodline · Jan 15, 2022

outrider58 said:
We'll see. The LED emission is a bit slower than what I'm used to. Hopefully that won't be a giant issue. I try to keep an open mind from gun to gun. Instead of being better or worse, I try to convince myself that it's just different. I do love the feedback you get from a red dot on a pistol. I dry fire this gun every day. Now, with the red dot, it made me realize I need a lot more finger on the trigger to hold the dot on target through the trigger press.

That has been my concern with swampfox optics. I know that Primary Arms (holosun), holosun, Trijicon, and aimpoint MRDS options are all fantastic options already, durable, and don’t look like runny eggs with my particular astigmatism. I like the former primary arms guy they hired to help with their design and marketing, but I don’t know if I like him enough to chance wasting $100-$200 on optics I’m not sure I’ll like. Plus for carry I’m automatically going to go with something I know, which means Trijicon, holosun, or Aimpoint.

Sig365 slide cut and optic question

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