Working on Pistol Load Accuracy

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  • John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,733
    Socialist State of Maryland
    I'm always interested in learning. What books do you recommend?

    These 2 books will be of great value to anyone interested in building an accurate 1911 pistol.

    Ken Hallock's .45 Auto Handbook and The Colt .45 Automatic by Jerry Kahnhausesn.

    Jerry's books are better illustrated as Ken published his on his own dime. ;)
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    These 2 books will be of great value to anyone interested in building an accurate 1911 pistol.

    Ken Hallock's .45 Auto Handbook and The Colt .45 Automatic by Jerry Kahnhausesn.

    Jerry's books are better illustrated as Ken published his on his own dime. ;)

    John, BTW, thx for the donations. Reading the books so far and especially what has been highlighted with a Yellow marker by you makes me NEVER want to do all this work myself. However, having a better understanding does help me understand my 1911 better and understand why the Kimber after taking off the compensator and putting on the EGW bushing is shooting so good especially compared to the sloppy ATI 1911
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,733
    Socialist State of Maryland
    John, BTW, thx for the donations. Reading the books so far and especially what has been highlighted with a Yellow marker by you makes me NEVER want to do all this work myself. However, having a better understanding does help me understand my 1911 better and understand why the Kimber after taking off the compensator and putting on the EGW bushing is shooting so good especially compared to the sloppy ATI 1911

    While having machining skills used to be most important in gunsmithing, the advent of CAD/CAM, advances in metal casting and computer controlled manufacturing has tightened up the tolerances of manufactured parts. This allows you to drop in parts and get good results without the fitting needed in the past.

    One thing that will go against your engineering nature is peening the rails on a 1911. While they make plates that slip into the groove on the frame so that you can peen the top rail, you can do it without the plates and still get excellent results. Just use an 8 oz hammer and check frequently with a good micrometer. Running the side and feeling the play will give you an idea of where to peen. Give it a try, if you can learn to reload and cast bullets, you can learn gunsmithing too. ;)
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    357/38 accurate load

    So, I don't have a 357 target revolver (YET) but hope to soon. So, prepping for that, looking for what Mold I would want for it.
    I have been gifted a Lee 140gr SWC 6 part mold

    I'd like to work on getting the right mold then mold up bullets ahead of time.
    Suggestions?
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,733
    Socialist State of Maryland
    357/38 accurate load

    So, I don't have a 357 target revolver (YET) but hope to soon. So, prepping for that, looking for what Mold I would want for it.
    I have been gifted a Lee 140gr SWC 6 part mold

    I'd like to work on getting the right mold then mold up bullets ahead of time.
    Suggestions?

    FYI. I got the 140gn mold because I wanted a SWC flat based mold and didn't want to spend a lot of money. I was hoping it would come close to the POI of my fixed sight .38's. It did and I was happy with it. Ideally, the fixed sight 38 caliber revolvers shoot POI = POA with 158gn bullets. With adjustable sights, you will find the Lee 140 very accurate and it leaves a nice clean hole.
     

    U.S.SFC_RET

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 8, 2005
    6,696
    These 2 books will be of great value to anyone interested in building an accurate 1911 pistol.

    Ken Hallock's .45 Auto Handbook and The Colt .45 Automatic by Jerry Kahnhausesn.

    Jerry's books are better illustrated as Ken published his on his own dime.

    I have those two very indispensable books and refer to them from time to time.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    FYI. I got the 140gn mold because I wanted a SWC flat based mold and didn't want to spend a lot of money. I was hoping it would come close to the POI of my fixed sight .38's. It did and I was happy with it. Ideally, the fixed sight 38 caliber revolvers shoot POI = POA with 158gn bullets. With adjustable sights, you will find the Lee 140 very accurate and it leaves a nice clean hole.

    any suggestions on powder ranges to work out a test ladder and how deep to seat them? I'm powder coating them and was looking at keeping the crimp just below the crimp groove which would put me at 1.450"
    W231, Unique, Bullseye, Power Pistol are my choices
    Bullseye and W231 is what I have the most of.
    I like to use Unique for other "special stuff"

    I also have about 100 158gr SWC bevel base bullets to try as well.

    Looking to load stuff up this weekend so I'll have it when I pick up the 686 on Tuesday
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,733
    Socialist State of Maryland
    As a rule of thumb for revolver and rifle shooting, I seat my bullets at least 1 diameter into the case for starting load development. Once you try a few loads and find one or two better than the others, then you can adjust the COAL and see what works better including Chronagraph data.

    I would start out a 2.8 grains with Bullseye and 3.0 with WW231. I never had luck with bevel based .38 bullets so you are on your own there. :D
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    I have tried some 158 lead hard cast bevel and the powder coated 140 gr with bullseye and not having much luck. Best 3 shot group so far is 5” @25 yards on a pistol rest with the new S&W 5” 686

    Wondering if I should load with a 357 case instead

    I loaded the 158 with 3.1-3.5 Bullseye
    Loaded the 140 with 3.7-4.3 Bullseye
    I have not tested my W231 load yet

    Her is how deep I’m seating. This too far in?

    3270daa6d32a8ff9d4877be66ee38f65.jpg



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    byf43

    SCSC Life/NRA Patron Life
    I have tried some 158 lead hard cast bevel and the powder coated 140 gr with bullseye and not having much luck. Best 3 shot group so far is 5” @25 yards on a pistol rest with the new S&W 5” 686

    Wondering if I should load with a 357 case instead

    I loaded the 158 with 3.1-3.5 Bullseye
    Loaded the 140 with 3.7-4.3 Bullseye
    I have not tested my W231 load yet

    Her is how deep I’m seating. This too far in?

    3270daa6d32a8ff9d4877be66ee38f65.jpg



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Ever since I got a huge 'ring' of lead in the chambers of my mdl 19-4 years ago, using .38 Special cases w/ lead, I only use .357 cases. Period.

    158 gr hardcast SWC sitting on top of 7.2 grains of Unique is easy to shoot; is easy on the gun; is accurate; and is FUN to shoot!
     

    Magnumite

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 17, 2007
    6,563
    Harford County, Maryland
    A load I always had good luck in 357 Mag is 3.3 gr Bullsye under 148 DEWC
    gr and same charge under 158 grain SWC. Gave about 825 fps for the 148 grain...chrono’d at a PPC (Action Pistol) Match.m

    As far as the lead ring and fouling at 38 Special depth in the 357 Magnum chamber..I keep a long slightly flared 357 case in the shooting bag. When the ring causes difficult chambering during a range visit, I just push the case through the chambers, cutting the lead and fouling out. Never failed to work. That said, I prefer using 357 cases in 357 revolvers, that being one of the reasons.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    Commercial cast 158 SWC ( .358) with 3.2gr 231 , CCI std primer , with range brass gives sub 1.0 in @ 25yds in guns capable of that accuracy . I declared Victory at that point , and made that my accuracy test load .

    That is 50fps slower than traditional 158 std vel factory loads . ( Chrono'ed from same gun vs Federal 158 LRN , back then that was a thing). If velocity matching is important to you , substitute 3.4gr of 231 , accuracy almost as good .


    [ FWIW - Same bullets and cases , 4.5gr of Unique was mid to upper 800's , for my " full power , but not quite +P " load . This was as high as I cared to go with random Range Brass . For " more adventuresome " loads , I used once fired brass , that I personally once fired .]
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    How does my depth look if I use that on either 38spl or use same depth on 357?

    I have some 148gr DEWC loaded that I have not tried with that pistol, its in a 38spl case and 3.5gr of W231

    I'd REALLY like to get that 140SWC working cause that's a 6 bullet mold. Looking to see what I should change up to get say a 5 bullet group within 3" @ 25 yards from the rest.

    Just looked at chrono data and the 140swc loads ranged from 880fps up to 990fps at the top
    Again these are powder coated and I'm using hard lead (12-15bhn)
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    Should have mentioned , I never *measured * COL , simply crimped as appropriate in the crimp groove .

    Since once upon a time I had access to quantities of .38spl range brass for free , and most of my .357 guns shot well enough with .38 case , .38 loads in .357 cases were never on my radar .
     

    Magnumite

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 17, 2007
    6,563
    Harford County, Maryland
    You should easily get 2 1/2” groups if you build the loads well and those bullets you cast are good quality.

    The present loads you shot, are they all one charge weight or multiple weights? I ask be ause that is a big velocity spread.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    You should easily get 2 1/2” groups if you build the loads well and those bullets you cast are good quality.

    The present loads you shot, are they all one charge weight or multiple weights? I ask be ause that is a big velocity spread.

    that is across the range I tested.

    3 shot groups.
    For example, at 4.3gr bullseye, it was 995,991, 997

    I'm not roll crimping by the way, Im using Lee FCD and crimping Just above the crimp groove.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    So, going by a suggestion earlier in the thread, I looked at the cylinder throat of the 357 revolver I"m currently testing (S&W 686).
    Turns out my 158gr Beveled SWC is actually sized to 357 and that pushes through with finger pressure along with a jacketed 128gr FP I have.
    My DEWC and the 358 sized 140gr will NOT push though the cylinder throat.

    I slugged the barrel but its hard to measure cause it has an odd # of grooves.

    My though is to take the .357 158gr Lead SWC and build up some .357 cased loads with them across a broader spectrum of safe velocities and try that?
    I'll be able to have the bullets start out making contact in the cylinder throats

    How does that sound for a next step?
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,733
    Socialist State of Maryland
    So, going by a suggestion earlier in the thread, I looked at the cylinder throat of the 357 revolver I"m currently testing (S&W 686).
    Turns out my 158gr Beveled SWC is actually sized to 357 and that pushes through with finger pressure along with a jacketed 128gr FP I have.
    My DEWC and the 358 sized 140gr will NOT push though the cylinder throat.

    I slugged the barrel but its hard to measure cause it has an odd # of grooves.

    My though is to take the .357 158gr Lead SWC and build up some .357 cased loads with them across a broader spectrum of safe velocities and try that?
    I'll be able to have the bullets start out making contact in the cylinder throats

    How does that sound for a next step?

    When I owned .357 revolvers, I always loaded my .38's with only one caliber in the case. That put the bullet closer to the rifling. They were never as good as actual .357 brass loads but they worked. Loading .357 cases made a difference for me and it probably will for you.
     

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