A liberal case for Gun Ownership by Bret Weinstein

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  • Benny

    Active Member
    Feb 20, 2019
    185
    I like to think that those who describe themselves as liberal gun owners, but who currently vote for anti-2A politicians, are in a period of transition and will eventually align their voting habits with their 2A beliefs.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    Darkemp

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 18, 2009
    7,808
    Marylandistan
    I like to think that those who describe themselves as liberal gun owners, but who currently vote for anti-2A politicians, are in a period of transition and will eventually align their voting habits with their 2A beliefs.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    The leftists make such little sense on many issues and their anti 2A message is contrary to the rise in crime in suburban and rural areas that it’s not a surprise that some begin to have an awakening to what is really happening in the world.
     

    Sirex

    Powered by natural gas
    Oct 30, 2010
    10,380
    Westminster, MD
    It's worth it to note in here that leftists are extremely pro gun... but not for good reasons. There is a great chasm between leftists that are marching towards communism and liberals. The 2a community needs to be a little careful about how excited we get at the premise of those "on the left" supporting guns. There's leftists that specifically want the guns for violent bloody revolution against us.

    Bret is more of the classical liberal type, which is why his support of the 2a is somewhat novel.

    I noticed after Trump was elected, then even more so during 2020, more socialists/communists joining the once conservative based gun pages and groups. We've seen a few on MDS, but largely on Facebook either with the intent on gathering information, or shutting pages down, but the leftist gun owners have a very militant intent under the guise of social justice and equity. Many don't see taking your property by force and giving it it to the people with less and problem. Many socialist gun clubs and groups forming to battle conservatives should the call arise. They are arming up, yet electing the people who would disarm them in a heartbeat, not that conservatives always elect the best. I'd be lying if I said I am happy to be seeing liberals arming up. Am I a hypocrite? Perhaps. While I am very pro 2A, I see no joy, or brotherhood in my enemy, who hate me and wish to take what is mine, or has such contempt for me they'd like to see me locked up in a camp/executed, arming up for a potential war with me. The left is evil, and as we are witnessing with them holding the executive branch, legislative branch, and wanting to change the rules to take the judicial by stacking the courts, the want absolute power. Compliance. Dominance. Unfettered loyalty to their agenda, cause, and misbeliefs. Kneel before Zod so to speak. I will not kneel. If it comes to me, as the old Klingon proverb states, "Today is a good day to die."
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,877
    Weinstein is an actual Classical Liberal , in the Enlightenment tradition , free thought , free speech , and all . As he discovered at great cost , those are under direct attack by the Woke Progressive Left .

    He might still identify with the label from his youth when it meant something different , but objectively in 2020 , he would be a libertarian , and from his podcasts and interviews , he is increasingly finding common ground with conservatives .
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,154
    Jus wanted to point out that he is incorrect in asserting that the U.S. Revolution was "won by men with muskets." While it is true that the flintlock rifle was the predominate small arm of the war, the war was not won exclusively by men with these arms. Rather, the war was also won by the Continental Navy at sea with commissioned and privately owned and ships, ships that disrupted commerce and even took the fight to the British mainland a la John Paul Jones.

    The reason I make this distinction is because for many years before/during/after the founding of our Nation, private individuals could own war ships ("privateers"). This would be the equivalent of a modern American owning a strategic-level weapon (a guided missile cruiser, a strike fighter, etc). So it really bothers me when liberals claim that the founders could not have seen a world in which private citizens are able to own "weapons of war."

    Private citizens also owned artillery in the founding era. The right to keep and bear ARMS covers it all.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,877
    Or for another angle :

    Back then , a Flintlock Musket WAS state of the art infantry weaponry .
     

    USArmyJoe

    Pretty good shot
    Oct 5, 2021
    163
    AA County
    I like Bret Weinstein's super-rational way of arriving at his conclusions. He often talks about how he challenges his own views and has changed his mind on several things, which to me is a sign of an honest, rational, free thinker.

    I also appreciate that he uses the word "liberal" in the way the rest of the world does, as in "promoting liberty", not as "leftist" as we use it here in the US. If you have ever seen the standard political compass, "liberal" is opposite "authoritarian" on the vertical axis, which would hopefully make a lot of people in the US happier to say they are liberal. The "right" and "left" on the horizontal axis represents economic views, which are much closer to our views of leftists.

    The Dark Horse podcast (Bret Weinstein's podcast he does with his also super intelligent, former professor wife) is a great listen if you like his format.
     

    gremlin42

    Active Member
    Apr 16, 2020
    696
    variable
    I’m also a semi regular listener of his podcast along with most of the IDW types, I was pleasantly surprised to see this. I had a similar evolution, no pun intended, on the point of 2A. Bret was the first to really sound the alarm in the mainstream on our present cultural revolution, since he was the subject of the Evergreen College incident. That was a microcosm of every crazy thing that’s happened since and 2020 was a national Evergreen riot. I’ve been reading about the Bolsheviks lately and am fully convinced that the only thing that will save us from communism and/or technocratic fascism is our armed populace, and hopeful that the mere presence of guns will be enough. Bret and I’m sure many others have come to the same conclusion independently.
     

    gremlin42

    Active Member
    Apr 16, 2020
    696
    variable
    Also regarding the liberal self-identification, he’s definitely a classical liberal but he still calls himself progressive, which I don’t see, and I now find just a little disingenuous. I guess he still has some faith in government policy to advance the greater good but he also knows that progressivism has gone hand in hand with genocidal totalitarianism over the last century.
     

    woodline

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2017
    1,947
    The Weinstein brothers are both very intelligent and rational. I always enjoy hearing what either has to say on a particular topic.

    I do think Brett has hit upon something that the entire political spectrum in America can view as common ground. This is anecdotal, but I hope it serves as an interesting datapoint:

    The vast majority of my family is very liberal. I think that is because the majority of us grew up in hyper conservative areas of Kentucky. Like less than 5 miles to multiple churches that still practice snake handling (not a criticism, just trying to paint a picture). It is natural for kids to rebel against the mainstream, and in our case it was against conservatives. Since most everyone was conservative, it follows that the majority of ignorant blather was from conservatives. Then we all went off to college, having been told we were going to hell for not being southern Baptist or whatever, and we discover the party of peace and love. I ended up enlisting and was quickly exposed to people from all over the world, and traveled the world a fair bit. My world travels led me back to a classical liberal perspective, and the realization that good intentions are useless when 99% of the actions taken by a certain party end up causing more harm than good.

    As my relatives have matured in life, some have started to wake up to the fact that their tax dollars are being used to cause more harm than good, and others have not. Or they know it and don’t care, because regardless they can’t fight off the ghosts of our past that they use to define what they are not.

    Trump was incredibly unpopular in my family, but at a base level it was not because of what he did. It is how he behaves. I know many on this forum feel differently, and I’m not debating the topic. Just reporting what my large extended family thinks.

    As one might guess, a common holiday tradition at our family get togethers is to play stump the conservative chump, so I get a lot of opportunities to defend my viewpoints. The second amendment is historically a topic of interest. As I’ve matured, I’ve simplified my argument on the topic to: Guns (and the intent of the second amendment) need to be easily accessible and widespread among civilians to allow for violent overthrow of the government if necessary. The threat of violence is one of a very few things that will make a bureaucracy stop and think, and that is a good thing. I settled upon this argument because it really doesn’t have a logical counterpoint, and the very indoctrinated tended to see it as crazy. No point in trying to argue with a crazy person. Either they agree or will agree to change the subject.

    For good or ill, Trump and the civil unrest of the past two years has severely undermined my liberal relatives’ dreams of utopian socialist America, and now they are increasingly apt to view the government as untrustworthy and unwilling or unable to protect them from the dregs of society. Suddenly the stump the chump sessions have altered to questions about the best firearms to protect the home. In 2021 my liberal relatives have started to find common ground with me on firearms, which is mutual distrust of the government. Yes they will still largely probably vote for the same shitty politicians as always, but they have started to wake up. They are starting to realize that we live on the same planet as the war torn third world, and there is less separation between us and them than they thought.
     

    gremlin42

    Active Member
    Apr 16, 2020
    696
    variable
    The Weinstein brothers are both very intelligent and rational. I always enjoy hearing what either has to say on a particular topic.

    I do think Brett has hit upon something that the entire political spectrum in America can view as common ground. This is anecdotal, but I hope it serves as an interesting datapoint:

    The vast majority of my family is very liberal. I think that is because the majority of us grew up in hyper conservative areas of Kentucky. Like less than 5 miles to multiple churches that still practice snake handling (not a criticism, just trying to paint a picture). It is natural for kids to rebel against the mainstream, and in our case it was against conservatives. Since most everyone was conservative, it follows that the majority of ignorant blather was from conservatives. Then we all went off to college, having been told we were going to hell for not being southern Baptist or whatever, and we discover the party of peace and love. I ended up enlisting and was quickly exposed to people from all over the world, and traveled the world a fair bit. My world travels led me back to a classical liberal perspective, and the realization that good intentions are useless when 99% of the actions taken by a certain party end up causing more harm than good.

    As my relatives have matured in life, some have started to wake up to the fact that their tax dollars are being used to cause more harm than good, and others have not. Or they know it and don’t care, because regardless they can’t fight off the ghosts of our past that they use to define what they are not.

    Trump was incredibly unpopular in my family, but at a base level it was not because of what he did. It is how he behaves. I know many on this forum feel differently, and I’m not debating the topic. Just reporting what my large extended family thinks.

    As one might guess, a common holiday tradition at our family get togethers is to play stump the conservative chump, so I get a lot of opportunities to defend my viewpoints. The second amendment is historically a topic of interest. As I’ve matured, I’ve simplified my argument on the topic to: Guns (and the intent of the second amendment) need to be easily accessible and widespread among civilians to allow for violent overthrow of the government if necessary. The threat of violence is one of a very few things that will make a bureaucracy stop and think, and that is a good thing. I settled upon this argument because it really doesn’t have a logical counterpoint, and the very indoctrinated tended to see it as crazy. No point in trying to argue with a crazy person. Either they agree or will agree to change the subject.

    For good or ill, Trump and the civil unrest of the past two years has severely undermined my liberal relatives’ dreams of utopian socialist America, and now they are increasingly apt to view the government as untrustworthy and unwilling or unable to protect them from the dregs of society. Suddenly the stump the chump sessions have altered to questions about the best firearms to protect the home. In 2021 my liberal relatives have started to find common ground with me on firearms, which is mutual distrust of the government. Yes they will still largely probably vote for the same shitty politicians as always, but they have started to wake up. They are starting to realize that we live on the same planet as the war torn third world, and there is less separation between us and them than they thought.

    100% on all this. I started 2020 as a libertarian leaning moderate lib who trusted the msm a bit too much, now I’m more aligned with my conservative family and trying to bring the few liberals in this southern family back around to at least see how the system is lying to them. Your family sounds similar bc if there’s one thing that sealed it for me, it was watching media-incited criminal mobs loose in the street. That should terrify anyone with any sense of decency, and the people I know who saw it and didn’t care? I have nothing to say to them anymore. Those like relatives and me are more common than many on this forum realize. What’s scary is how much the regime is doubling down on its efforts now, because they surely see the backlash.
     

    Ponder_MD

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 9, 2020
    4,554
    Maryland
    I hosted my parents for Thanksgiving. My father claims to be a blue dog Democrat. His politics are nonsensical and contradictory.
    He's a Democrat voting gun owner. He truly believes that Democrats will never tamper with the Second Amendment. He's outraged by the rioting, homelessness and crime but votes for Social Democrats.

    He went on a rant about anti-vaxxers being "Trumptards" and clearly blames them for the US not reaching "herd immunity." When I stopped him and pointed out that people across genders, age groups, races and political boundaries have resisted vaccination, he switched tracks and claimed that it's "not political" but in the very next breath blamed Trump for politicizing the virus. His train of thought was so disconnected, contradictory and bewildering that I put the brakes on it and told him that there would be no further discussion of politics during the holiday weekend. After my parents left, even my wife expressed incredulity at his beliefs and train of thought.

    My dad is a college educated engineer. He doesn't get his news from social media. How he arrives at his conclusions is simply beyond my comprehension. He seems to be trying to straddle a line of moderation but is failing miserably. I realize that a sample size of "one" does not make a good study but this is the kind of crap we're up against in the American electorate.
     

    gtodave

    Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 14, 2007
    14,156
    Mt Airy
    I hosted my parents for Thanksgiving. My father claims to be a blue dog Democrat. His politics are nonsensical and contradictory.
    He's a Democrat voting gun owner. He truly believes that Democrats will never tamper with the Second Amendment. He's outraged by the rioting, homelessness and crime but votes for Social Democrats.

    He went on a rant about anti-vaxxers being "Trumptards" and clearly blames them for the US not reaching "herd immunity." When I stopped him and pointed out that people across genders, age groups, races and political boundaries have resisted vaccination, he switched tracks and claimed that it's "not political" but in the very next breath blamed Trump for politicizing the virus. His train of thought was so disconnected, contradictory and bewildering that I put the brakes on it and told him that there would be no further discussion of politics during the holiday weekend. After my parents left, even my wife expressed incredulity at his beliefs and train of thought.

    My dad is a college educated engineer. He doesn't get his news from social media. How he arrives at his conclusions is simply beyond my comprehension. He seems to be trying to straddle a line of moderation but is failing miserably. I realize that a sample size of "one" does not make a good study but this is the kind of crap we're up against in the American electorate.
    Make it a sample size of Two: my mom is the queen of circular and disjointed logic. Voted for Obama because "healthcare", and now hates the healthcare world even more. Is Pro mask mandates, and wears her mask around her neck everywhere yet never puts it on unless going in to a retail store. I can debate a topic with her and lead her through the logic, letting her answer in her own way (usually correctly), and when it gets to the conclusion she slips back in to her preconceived notion of what is "right" rather than the logical conclusion.
     

    JohnnyE

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 18, 2013
    9,459
    MoCo
    I could repeat so much of what has already been said though to be brief I'll second everyone's thoughts plus complement Bret Weinstein on not just hitting the major issues that need to be explored in the 2A debate, but for offering meaningful discussion of those issues using tremendous economy of words.

    Other than those who choose to remain willfully ignorant or face attention-deficit challenges, most everyone should be able to read the Weinstein piece and develop some understanding of the key considerations in this debate. It's not a simple observation that starts and ends with: people are murdered with guns ergo all guns are bad.
     

    ToolAA

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 17, 2016
    10,499
    God's Country
    At least one Liberal at the Washington Post is starting to get it...just starting to. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...t-guns-its-about-why-people-are-willing-kill/


    I stumbled upon this link yesterday. It is refreshing to see an article from the WP. The writer, and the editor had the courage to call out the real (and much harder to solve) problem of how some humans are behave in a civil society today.

    We rail on about guns.
    The rifle, pistol, machete are not mind-controlling devices that make people do what they ought not to do. Guns, knives, tire irons are means. The urge, the willingness to use them to kill or hurt another person stems from elsewhere.

    What does create that urge?
    Think rage. Think greed, revenge, jealousy, fright, being looked down upon, mental brokenness — pick one, add others.

    Our crisis — the urge to kill — is the curve that needs flattening. Otherwise, the annual homicide threshold will keep rising even as mothers, grandmas and other loved ones weep, and bodies continue to fall.
     

    ToolAA

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 17, 2016
    10,499
    God's Country
    If only we didn't have the guns......

    Like with most liberals, I see this theme resonate throughout the dissertation here as well.

    I personally see this article as again being about diversion. Skillful diversion perhaps. Perhaps not purposeful diversion. But diversion none the less.

    My take on this comment is that it’s made in the context of a hypothetical impossibly to actually get beyond those people who actually do whole heartedly believe that Guns are the problem. This OpEd was not written to help convince you or me that guns are necessary to preserve a free state, it’s written by a political moderate for other political moderates. There will be people who are starting to question their long standing beliefs that guns are the problem, and unnecessary in modern society. They are not ready to listen to a guy who is open carrying a .44 Mag at Walmart, while wearing MAGA hat and toting Gadsden Flag. I’d talk to that dude, but these people absolutely need to hear from someone like Bret Articles like this have a chance to convince then to critically analyze their biases about the second amendment.
     

    Slackdaddy

    My pronouns: Iva/Bigun
    Jan 1, 2019
    5,845
    Yes, the leftist are "arming up",, just read some of the "Reddit Groups" that cater to Leftist/liberal gun owners.
    They are VERY clear and state often that they are NOT "liberals" but are leftists.
    They are also clear why they are arming up,, and it is not to protect your constitutional rights. But to inflict their will on all those that oppose their agenda.
     

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