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  • alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,690
    PA
    Yup, living in MD most of my life, I heard how much better life in PA is, moved in 08 and found it has been better than I ever could have expected. Cost of living, and housing costs are much lower, actual property and income taxes are really low, it's the school tax that brings the cost up to around the same overall property tax a comparable home in MD would pay(with a higher appraised value). Local taxes and utilities vary wildly by area, be sure to check them with your realtor. In my area of Windsor, trash/sewer/water costs $250+ quarterly, a buddy in neighboring Red Lion pays $50 quarterly for the same, slightly higher property tax, about the same school tax, his house is a lot bigger. LTCF is easy, get a DL, fill out a 1 page form, mail it in with a $25 check, get a call and go pick it up 2 days later, that's it. There are a ton of private ranges around, most are somewhat easy to join, and cost under $100 a year to shoot any time you want.

    My MVA nightmare seems to be well known. Basically I had 2 days of MD/PA insurance overlap to make sure I could get tags and licensing done with insurance in both states while being 100% legal, and under the advisement of USAA(my insurance co). MD MVA said I never turned in tags, said their receipt proving I turned in the tags meant nothing, said my MD license was suspended, they didn't notify me till a couple months and couple grand worth of fines were racked up. Took a year of fighting, my insurance co sent form after form, and ended up basically taking MVA to court over it before it was dropped, and I haven't heard anything in the last 4 years. I know a few others who got hit with MVA insurance compliance fines, some paid, some kept getting letters and just trashed them(so far no arrests or collection agencies AFAIK), one other fought successfully like me.

    I also found a lot of differences in what is utility/locality's responsibility and what is the homeowner. If the sidewalk needs to be repaired, it is on me to repair it, not the borough or county, and I have to repair it in accordance with their expensive guidelines, so basically take care of your sidewalk, it might cost you thousands if it is damaged and someone complains. Our water meter is actually at the far end of our neighbors property in a pit with his meter also. had a water pipe bust underground, I had to dig it up and replace it, would have had to pay to move the curb stop on my property too, but I left it as-is, and just ran a 2" pipe to sleeve the utility pipe, had to pay for all the water that leaked out too, they get water to the meter, wherever it is, after that it's yours, in MD meters are on the house, the utility will put it there, and the utility is responsible for getting water to it, unless it leaks into your house after the meter, you don't get charged for leaking water. Went to get a permit to put up a fence, basically got laughed at, and took the lady in the borough office 2 days to find the permit forms, and figure out exactly how to handle permits(said she hadn't filled one out in 10 years). Even though it is required, nobody ever gets on, and it isn't enforced unless you are doing something major, presumable like adding a 2nd story on your house.

    Also pretty much got scammed by a NJ electric company. Lots of Dems and Republicans alike pushed hard for electric de-regulation, but it's kind of a cluster, hundreds of providers trying to get you to sign up with them, some are good, some bad, never had a problem with met-Ed, our original "default" provider, and never wanted to change. Got a call from ITC out of NJ, said they represented Met-Ed, and were handling the billing, verified my basic info(they read it to me), and that was a little over a year ago, never said they were taking over Electric, never said they were a separate company, said the electric cost was fixed, and never noticed a difference. That is till February's bill, 2X higher than normal, the rate went from .08c per kW to .15c per kW, I called, found the company lied, Met-ed was forced by law to hand over customer info to 3rd party companies, and had nothing to do with the company billing me, and to top it off, Met-Ed never raised their prices, if I didn't get bamboozled, I would still be paying .08c per kW. The company ITC basically said nothing other than "pay up, or we turn it off" being they are under a pending investigation and numerous lawsuits for this, pretty much trying to collect as much as they can till they get smacked. Managed to switch my electric back to Met-ed, and lock the account, so it couldn't be changed without my permission and I "opted out" of sharing my info. Got the last ITC bill, now 3X higher at .25 per kW, but that is the last of it, and next bill should be right. Turns out a lot of small electric suppliers have done/are doing this, unadvertised "introductory" fixed rates, swapping people without proper paperwork or notification, fraud, lying to customers, impersonating other electric companies, and so on, tens of thousands of people got scammed, and the state AG's office is going after them hard, which I'm involved with, all in all losing $400 through a quasi-legal scam isn't the end of the world, and hopefully I get some back once the class-action settlements start rolling in.
     
    Last edited:

    DROB

    member...
    Jul 25, 2011
    504
    North of the MD border...
    I grew up in MD and finally moved out in 2006. I have a home in PA, but I am bad and don't pay attention enough to what my taxes are, b/c no matter what I am going to have to pay. So I have thrown up my arms in that respect.

    I work in MD w/ a few other gun enthusiasts, and thank myself every time we talk about firearms, that I moved to PA and do not have to deal with those issues.

    I have carried (when not in MD) everywhere I go in PA anymore. I have noticed others doing the same, some CCW some open carry. I am not quite comfortable yet with open carry, but I will get there someday. Applying for the permit and being approved was easy for me. I submitted an application and within a month, I was emailed a notification to go to York Courthouse to pick my permit up. I think it was $25, can't remember to be sure.

    As for the MVA/DMV, I feel like everyone in PA has a horror story, mine is no worse no better than others..

    I don't regret moving, and not have convinced my parents to do the same!
     

    Curmudgeon

    I H8 stinkbugz
    Sep 6, 2010
    333
    York, Pennsylvania
    alucard you raise a good point about water/sewer, I know my property taxes in MD covered sewer, and I think it covered water as well. I'm also in Windsor and I think I pay a bit less than you, but not enough of a difference to worry about. Our water is typically $28 -$35 per month, and our sewer is $105 per quarter.

    Nit-pick on the last 2 posts: a PA LTCF is $20, and good for 5 years. Various Sheriffs would attempt to collect more than that, and they were called on it 2 years ago, and straightened out. The fee is specified in the statutes and they had no business charging more than they were allowed to.

    I paid $20 for mine in 2008, the Mrs paid $20 for hers in 2009, and I just renewed this past December and it was still $20. Admittedly a nit-pick but I just wanted to throw that out there because we fought to correct it, although York was never one of the Sheriffs that overcharged.

    Edited to add: We are also completely impressed with MetEd, particularly their performance when power goes out, they get it back on FAST. Also, although we have some sort of water valve in the front yard near the street, out meter is actually in our basement. House built in '42 and originally had well and septic but we are now on city water/sewer. The well is in the basement too!
     

    Curmudgeon

    I H8 stinkbugz
    Sep 6, 2010
    333
    York, Pennsylvania
    I grew up in MD and finally moved out in 2006. I have a home in PA, but I am bad and don't pay attention enough to what my taxes are, b/c no matter what I am going to have to pay. So I have thrown up my arms in that respect.

    I work in MD w/ a few other gun enthusiasts, and thank myself every time we talk about firearms, that I moved to PA and do not have to deal with those issues.

    I have carried (when not in MD) everywhere I go in PA anymore. I have noticed others doing the same, some CCW some open carry. I am not quite comfortable yet with open carry, but I will get there someday. Applying for the permit and being approved was easy for me. I submitted an application and within a month, I was emailed a notification to go to York Courthouse to pick my permit up. I think it was $25, can't remember to be sure.

    As for the MVA/DMV, I feel like everyone in PA has a horror story, mine is no worse no better than others..

    I don't regret moving, and not have convinced my parents to do the same!


    I'm a bit of an open carry enthusiast/activist, I've been OCing for 5+ years throughout PA but mostly in York County. I think if/when you ever go for it you will discover that it's just not a big deal, but I truly believe this is something you should do ONLY if and when you are ready. we still hear the odd occasional story about negative encounters of various sorts, and you'll want to be prepared for that.

    Despite my OC enthusiasm I strongly support an individual's choice to OC or CC, and I am just glad to hear about yet another citizen carrying. I think we have something in the neighborhood of 180,000 residents in York County, and over 15,000 of us have our LTCF, or about one in every 12.

    I'll pause here for a moment while that sinks in. Consider your average trip to Walmart, typically when the store is packed. Imagine the total number of people in the store, and now consider that statistically one in every 12 is armed.

    I think I just heard the sound of an anti's head exploding. :D
     
    Last edited:

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,690
    PA
    alucard you raise a good point about water/sewer, I know my property taxes in MD covered sewer, and I think it covered water as well. I'm also in Windsor and I think I pay a bit less than you, but not enough of a difference to worry about. Our water is typically $28 -$35 per month, and our sewer is $105 per quarter.

    Nit-pick on the last 2 posts: a PA LTCF is $20, and good for 5 years. Various Sheriffs would attempt to collect more than that, and they were called on it 2 years ago, and straightened out. The fee is specified in the statutes and they had no business charging more than they were allowed to.

    I paid $20 for mine in 2008, the Mrs paid $20 for hers in 2009, and I just renewed this past December and it was still $20. Admittedly a nit-pick but I just wanted to throw that out there because we fought to correct it, although York was never one of the Sheriffs that overcharged.

    Edited to add: We are also completely impressed with MetEd, particularly their performance when power goes out, they get it back on FAST. Also, although we have some sort of water valve in the front yard near the street, out meter is actually in our basement. House built in '42 and originally had well and septic but we are now on city water/sewer. The well is in the basement too!

    Yes, $20, my mistake:o That is part of why PA gun rights are as good as they are, the entire community bands together and opposes ANY infringement, so they don't get away with much. The Harrisburg rallies are also pretty cool, there is something to be said about hundreds showing up open carrying in front of the Capitol, to show, and preserve the fact that we can. I haven't OCed much, I always CC, but OC in addition from time to time depending on what I am doing, 99% of the time people don't notice or care, 1% has been positive, including interacting with police, never a negative, the mindset is COMPLETELY different than MD.
     

    DROB

    member...
    Jul 25, 2011
    504
    North of the MD border...
    I'm a bit of an open carry enthusiast/activist, I've been OCing for 5+ years throughout PA but mostly in York County. I think if/when you ever go for it you will discover that it's just not a big deal, but I truly believe this is something you should do ONLY if and when you are ready. we still hear the odd occasional story about negative encounters of various sorts, and you'll want to be prepared for that.

    Despite my OC enthusiasm I strongly support an individual's choice to OC or CC, and I am just glad to hear about yet another citizen carrying. I think we have something in the neighborhood of 180,000 residents in York County, and over 15,000 of us have our LTCF, or about one in every 12.

    I'll pause here for a moment while that sinks in. Consider your average trip to Walmart, typically when the store is packed. Imagine the total number of people in the store, and now consider that statistically one in every 12 is armed.

    I think I just heard the sound of an anti's head exploding. :D

    I saw in one of your earlier posts that you had printed out a lot of flyers and handed them out to people as that asked you about open carry or may have questioned you about it. Do you mind me asking where I might be able to find a copy of that so that I might do the same when the time comes to start open carrying?

    I am confident in defending the right to carry a firearm in PA, but somehow I feel being able to hand someone that seems more official than just my word to a stranger.

    I like Anti's head exploding, it makes for good fireworks!
     

    Curmudgeon

    I H8 stinkbugz
    Sep 6, 2010
    333
    York, Pennsylvania
    I saw in one of your earlier posts that you had printed out a lot of flyers and handed them out to people as that asked you about open carry or may have questioned you about it. Do you mind me asking where I might be able to find a copy of that so that I might do the same when the time comes to start open carrying?

    I am confident in defending the right to carry a firearm in PA, but somehow I feel being able to hand someone that seems more official than just my word to a stranger.

    I like Anti's head exploding, it makes for good fireworks!


    There are several that may interest you...

    Here is a link to the specific flyer I was handing out: http://forum.pafoa.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=47826&d=1359214120

    It will download a .pdf file that you can print at home or take to a printer or copy shop. I plugged it into a color copier at a nearby print shop and it turned out very nice. This is the old flyer. Read through it carefully, some of the material and links/cites may not be valid anymore. This is the flyer that is currently being updated, but I do not believe the new version has been completed.


    Here is a link to a .pdf you can download and print out. It was received through a FOIA request. It was a part of PA's annual MPOETC (Municipal Police Officers' Education and Training Commission) for 2009:

    http://www.lildobe.net/PAFOA_Docs/MPOTEC_OC_Update_2009.pdf

    A couple of threads that may also interest you, I don't know if you are aware of these...

    http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/59762-open-carry-what-you-should-know-before-you-do.html

    http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-op...-cannot-carry-weapons-state-pennsylvania.html
     

    Rblakely

    Member
    Jun 14, 2013
    8
    York, PA
    I am also a Maryland to PA transplant. I still own a home in Maryland and the PA combined taxes (school tax, township tax) is less than the property tax I pay in MD (not by much).

    The ability to legally carry is awesome and took a little while to sink in. Since we moved to PA my wife and oldest son have also gotten their LTCF.

    Like Curmudgeon I also still work in Maryland. I can almost feel the freedom every afternoon as I approach the "Welcome to Pennsylvania" sign on 83 :)
     

    tcc722

    Active Member
    Jul 3, 2010
    296
    PA
    I also moved from Md to Pa in '06. There are a few downsides to Pa, but overall I like it much better. I will never move back to Md. I don't remember having any problems with changing my tags. I didn't even change them or my DL for about 6 months.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,690
    PA
    The "school tax" is a beast. But from what I understand, you get it back with lower income taxes and lower property costs in general. If you're OK with being rural, you'd be surprised at what you can get.

    And if you manage to find something over 10 acres in York or Adams County, you can get into the "Clean and Green" program. You pretty much promise not to subdivide the lot and they give you a nice tax break. There are also "homestead exemptions" and other stuff I haven't looked into.

    I just closed on an 11 acre property last weekend, just outside of Glen Rock. It sits right in a valley in the middle of nowhere. The house was originally built when George Washington was still alive...it went into disrepair and then someone rehabbed it in the 1970s and built a modern addition to it.

    Regarding cars, the way my insurance agent tells me, you have to get your PA license and your PA insurance before they will even let you title/tag your cars in PA. I plan to keep my MD tags as long as possible...the Acura has been throwing a P0402 Catalytic Converter code so I am concerned about it passing PA emissions. :o

    There is a learning curve after moving up here, in MD, the states and counties set most rules, fees/rates, and are in charge of most paperwork a resident is likely to encounter. In PA, the state and even counties are less involved, leaving every city, township, borough, village and fiefdom to make their own rules, taxes, rates, and paperwork, which is good because they are easier to challenge and deal with, but bad in that you can have a dramatically different experience depending on your exact address, or who the town elected most recently. Overall you get more for your dollar up here, even with the taxes all added together, it's still far cheaper than just about anywhere in MD.

    There are a lot of obscure taxes, exemptions and programs, the Homestead/Farmstead thing requires you to fill out a page, send it in, and get a couple hundred deducted from your resident property tax. Windsor Borough has about a half dozen annual taxes, occupational tax, earned income tax, and a few others I always forget to pay, each one runs $5 or $10 a year, so they don't cost much, but they get aggravating, especially if you receive the letter, then loose it in the 6 months or so before that tax is actually due. Most all taxes have 3 rates, pay early "discount rate", on time(about 2 weeks span), then late "penalty" rate.

    The order is PA license(they destroy your MD license), LTCF;), PA insurance, PA tags/registration, PA inspection, all within about a month. You of course can't get PA tags without PA insurance, and can't cancel your MD tags before you cancel MD insurance. I paid for a few days overlap before USAA transferred my policy to stay legal(despite the resulting fiasco described above), some get a 2nd policy with overlap, some break the law and get away with it. You can go to Runkles tag&title, they handle advice and paperwork for a fee, or your insurance companies can help keep you legal, and tell you how to make the switch at state DMV and DL centers.

    As far as that code, a P0402 is excess EGR flow, usually from a valve sticking open, valve control malfunction or Ford's famous DPFE sensor(obviously ruled out on your Acura). Might be a simple or potentially free fix if you can diagnose it, much better than a converter, assuming that is the right code. PA emissions and inspection are more basic than MD, basic safety equipment fails if it doesn't work, or is worn to nothing. If you have no codes, and your OBD monitors are set, you pass emissions. With some know how, and a decent scanner/OBD adapter you can get a car with intermittent codes to pass by clearing them, then driving in a way to set monitors fast as possible, then taking right to the shop. You get a waiver if you fail a second test after doing at least $150 in emissions related repairs.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,690
    PA
    Oh crap... I meant P0420. Typo. I remember joking when I first pulled it... "It's throwing a code 420...guess I need to drive to Colorado. :D "

    So who is the equivalent of MD Shooters in PA? Would that PAFOA?

    Possible post cat O2, probable cat. Depending on how long it takes for the code to come back after it is cleared, you might have enough time to pass, I've seen a few cars that would go months or years before it came back. Sometimes can even get lucky with a cat cleaner, or blowing seafoam through the intake manifold, then driving like a bat out of hell for a little while. Worst case you are stuck where you started, replacing a converter.

    PAFOA is the main PA forum, lots of good info, but it's a lot more business/less fun than MDS. I've been on that forum since 2008, but never really post, just read who I should send letters to, or when to show up to Harrisburg and yell at people. I still pass most of my boredom here, amusing, angering and bewildering those damn Marylanders:D
     

    Chris05STi

    Active Member
    Jul 15, 2012
    138
    How is PA on modified cars? I have no codes or smoke or anything. Just modified and all road safe???
     

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