New caliber for your AR10 coming..
- Thread starter Muleskinner
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steves1911
Ultimate Member
So essentially a 338 creedmoore? What can it do that the 338 federal cant?
This idea has bee out for several years look at article date. 338 Creedmoor can shoot very heavy 250 to 300 grain loads. With some rounds being subsonic. This is not it the 338 Federal venue as the shoulder is to far forward. So fo hunting big critters at night using subsonic is the calibers sweet spot.
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Literally an article from 2018 about a caliber that is still totally MIA. Come on, guys, let's do a bit of research before we post. The name of this caliber is now "8.6 Blackout" (https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/8-6-blackout-a-2020-update-with-qs-kevin-brittingham/)
The reason this caliber is "better" than 338 Federal is because the case is shorter and thus doesn't stuff part of the ogive of subs into the case itself. By having a new caliber, they can optimize barrels around subs with a really fast twist rate like 1:4. (https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/8-6-creedmoor/)
You also need to remember that this is very specifically a bolt gun cartridge for a very specific bolt gun. Kevin B alludes to this, but there's zero point to 8.6 Blackout in a typical AR-308 platform. The AR-15 with 300AAC is going to perform just as well with subs at a much lower weight. Since it's 8.6, your average 7.62 can is also not going to work with it; you'll need something capable of dealing with .338s like the Hybrid or Omega 36.
ETA: the bullet situation for subs is probably gonna involve cast bullets, so not so worried about projectile cost there. Agree that supers will be expensive.
The reason this caliber is "better" than 338 Federal is because the case is shorter and thus doesn't stuff part of the ogive of subs into the case itself. By having a new caliber, they can optimize barrels around subs with a really fast twist rate like 1:4. (https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/8-6-creedmoor/)
You also need to remember that this is very specifically a bolt gun cartridge for a very specific bolt gun. Kevin B alludes to this, but there's zero point to 8.6 Blackout in a typical AR-308 platform. The AR-15 with 300AAC is going to perform just as well with subs at a much lower weight. Since it's 8.6, your average 7.62 can is also not going to work with it; you'll need something capable of dealing with .338s like the Hybrid or Omega 36.
ETA: the bullet situation for subs is probably gonna involve cast bullets, so not so worried about projectile cost there. Agree that supers will be expensive.
- May 22, 2005
- 122,880
ToBeFree
Ultimate Member
Easy
In the sense that I want to grab as many guns for myself as possible, absolutely. I almost bought a Q Fix once upon a time, but got scared off by the bolt lift issues.Yeah, but you are practically a gun grabber so.....
Lasers!
jcutonilli
Ultimate Member
- Mar 28, 2013
- 2,474
Did you read the article you posted. One of the problems that they are running into is finding manufactures for the high twist rates. The manufacturing techniques most use don't perform well above about 1 in 7.
To say that subsonic 300 blk performs just as well as heavier projectiles ignores physics. The major way to increase performance of subsonic ammo is to increase bullet weight. Subsonic 300 blk gives handgun level performance. This new round will put subsonic performance somewhere between handgun and rifle performance.
alucard0822
For great Justice
IMO the 375 Raptor is far better, and much more like a "big 300BO". Supers and subs, 175-400gr bullets, formed from 308 brass, only a barrel swap, and uses a reasonable 1-8 twist to stabilize subs. No way the 8.6CM ever gets off the ground with a 1:3 twist requirement.
alucard0822
For great Justice
Seems like 8.6 Blackout is gaining some traction, lots of attention at SHOT 2022, Q is going all in, and Faxon is getting ready to make barrels for it. https://faxonfirearms.com/86blk/
The 375 Raptor is cool, but if 8.6BLK keeps getting mainstream attention, and SAAMI spec then it might get relatively popular. One of the most controversial features is the 1:3 twist rate they settled on, and a Q/Sig tapered muzzle shoulder. The tapered shoulder is pointless if not using a sig or Q can or MD, but plenty of adapters around to use other brands. The idea behind the insane twist rate is that bullets become very unstable very fast as they penetrate a soft target like when a spinning top starts loosing speed and starts yawing then tumbling fast. The rotation over 1/2 a MILLION RPM will grenade most any lead core supersonic load, and requires solid/HP guilding metal bullets. Subs are built around 338cal 300gr SMKs, with the ability to go heavier if new bullets are introduced. Supers are built around 150-210gr bullets, the 210gr TTSX load clocks around 2450FPS from 12.5" barrels per Q, more power than 308 out of an 18". The Sub loads have a massive .760 BC, and 700+FPE(legal for MD handgun hunting with subs), and doesn't loose a full 100FPS till around 350 yards.
Being it's like 300BO and brass can easily be made from a common caliber, and the ONLY thing needed is a barrel swap on an AR308(308 mags/BCG work), it's a pretty safe caliber to get into if it ends up loosing support in the future. Really want to build a 12.5" SBR, have a couple 9mm rifle rated cans to play with.
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The 375 Raptor is cool, but if 8.6BLK keeps getting mainstream attention, and SAAMI spec then it might get relatively popular. One of the most controversial features is the 1:3 twist rate they settled on, and a Q/Sig tapered muzzle shoulder. The tapered shoulder is pointless if not using a sig or Q can or MD, but plenty of adapters around to use other brands. The idea behind the insane twist rate is that bullets become very unstable very fast as they penetrate a soft target like when a spinning top starts loosing speed and starts yawing then tumbling fast. The rotation over 1/2 a MILLION RPM will grenade most any lead core supersonic load, and requires solid/HP guilding metal bullets. Subs are built around 338cal 300gr SMKs, with the ability to go heavier if new bullets are introduced. Supers are built around 150-210gr bullets, the 210gr TTSX load clocks around 2450FPS from 12.5" barrels per Q, more power than 308 out of an 18". The Sub loads have a massive .760 BC, and 700+FPE(legal for MD handgun hunting with subs), and doesn't loose a full 100FPS till around 350 yards.
Being it's like 300BO and brass can easily be made from a common caliber, and the ONLY thing needed is a barrel swap on an AR308(308 mags/BCG work), it's a pretty safe caliber to get into if it ends up loosing support in the future. Really want to build a 12.5" SBR, have a couple 9mm rifle rated cans to play with.
View attachment 335234
Attachments
- Feb 17, 2011
- 14,024
Magnumite
Ultimate Member
I'm interested in all large caliber subsonics. I just can't get excited over this one however. Its going to be crazy expensive factory loaded (much like 300BLK is.) I reload all my 300BLK subs for cheap. I've never made/bought/shot a 300 super (esp w/ the danger some of them have chambering in a 5.56 rifle.) I've processed tons of my own brass from 5.56 to make 300BLK. I read that the 8.6BLK is made from 6.5CM brass? That stuff is like gold to me (Don't have much of it either.) I'm guessing that 308 brass is too thick at the neck when shortened this much?
I'd much prefer 375/45 Raptor or 500 Auto Max for big subs. (Heck, even 510 Whisper has me intrigued.) They all use common and fairly inexpensive bullets. 375 Raptor brass can be made from 308 (just like 300BLK from 5.56 brass). The 45 & 500 are straight wall cartridges so legal to hunt with in a lot of places and will be easy to reload.
8.6BLK does have the ability to carry that astronomically high BC bullet. So if you have some reason to reach out and quietly touch something at longer distances I can see the advantage it brings. I'm never one to say new choices are a bad thing. I just don't see this one scratching an itch for me.
I'd much prefer 375/45 Raptor or 500 Auto Max for big subs. (Heck, even 510 Whisper has me intrigued.) They all use common and fairly inexpensive bullets. 375 Raptor brass can be made from 308 (just like 300BLK from 5.56 brass). The 45 & 500 are straight wall cartridges so legal to hunt with in a lot of places and will be easy to reload.
8.6BLK does have the ability to carry that astronomically high BC bullet. So if you have some reason to reach out and quietly touch something at longer distances I can see the advantage it brings. I'm never one to say new choices are a bad thing. I just don't see this one scratching an itch for me.
JohnC
Active Member
Is there really any practical advantage of this caliber to the point where it warrants investment in this new caliber? Doesn’t seem like it. Feels like a lot of these niche calibers fill a void that doesn’t need to be filled.
Coming soon in 2022: .577 Minié Creedmoor
alucard0822
For great Justice
There are still a lot of questions, mainly if it will get adopted or become popular like 300BO. The inability to use lead core bullets in super loads will be a big obstacle. Remains to be seen how "open source" it is too, when 300 Blackout was opened up to everyone with full SAAMI specs, it went mainstream in a way the proprietary 300 Whisper never could. Same will need to happen with this, and if it's open for anyone to build barrels for it, then other twist rates that can use less expensive bullets will probably happen. I think out of the thousands of rounds of 300BO I have shot out of several builds I've done, all but maybe a couple boxes were my handloads. I load subs and supers, and like the versatility of the caliber. Definitely have to watch mixing ammo with 5.56, but I store the ammo separately and use different mags, so not really an issue for me. Thinking the same thing, 308 brass is probably too thick, and 6.5CM brass is expensive, but might still be able to make it from 308 brass with an extra step or two. Cheap 300BO brass made from surplus 5.56 brass is one of the better features, and wouldn't be as popular if it had to be made from a less plentiful case. the 338 cal bullets are probably the best thing about it, lots of long bullets for subs, and will probably have less expensive plated bullets available if it takes off. Lots remains to be seen, but I'm probably square in the demographics for this, love 300BO, love my AR308 builds, would like a bigger, more capable subsonic suppressed platform, and nice I can use it with 9mm rifle rated cans. Having to file mags and use a 45cal can is probably the biggest turn off with 375 Raptor, and most all 35cal rifle bullets are under 250gr, so without new bullets that caliber is out, pretty much leaving 338 as the only choice.
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I don't see it becoming popular. At least in the sense that AR15s have to outsell AR10s at least 100:1. So when an AR10 is already niche, 8.6BLK is then a niche of a niche.
Good point you might be able to ream/neck turn a resized 308 case. I think a large part of the success of 300BLK was that it was so easy to adapt old brass for. Who doesn't have buckets of 5.56 brass sitting around? The barrier to entry was very low. The shoulder is so small it loads pretty much like a straight wall cartridge. I don't lube cases and have never had one stick. If I had to buy a bunch of components or reloading was finicky I don't know I would have ever made the leap to 300BLK.
The 9mm vs 45mm suppressor isn't a big deal to me as I already have both. I could see how that factors into the decision for some people though. I have a Bowers VERS 50 in transfer too. I like big bore and I can not lie...
I haven't looked into 375 Raptor much. It wasn't released yet when I was looking hard at 45 Raptor. I can see how the 375 version beats the 45 for most things. I've gone the 500 Auto max route for now (building my own from scratch.) Already have the reloading equip and bullets from the 500S&W. Need to get back onto that project this spring... (I keep saying that
)
Good point you might be able to ream/neck turn a resized 308 case. I think a large part of the success of 300BLK was that it was so easy to adapt old brass for. Who doesn't have buckets of 5.56 brass sitting around? The barrier to entry was very low. The shoulder is so small it loads pretty much like a straight wall cartridge. I don't lube cases and have never had one stick. If I had to buy a bunch of components or reloading was finicky I don't know I would have ever made the leap to 300BLK.
The 9mm vs 45mm suppressor isn't a big deal to me as I already have both. I could see how that factors into the decision for some people though. I have a Bowers VERS 50 in transfer too. I like big bore and I can not lie...
I haven't looked into 375 Raptor much. It wasn't released yet when I was looking hard at 45 Raptor. I can see how the 375 version beats the 45 for most things. I've gone the 500 Auto max route for now (building my own from scratch.) Already have the reloading equip and bullets from the 500S&W. Need to get back onto that project this spring... (I keep saying that
)
alucard0822
For great Justice
I don't see it becoming popular. At least in the sense that AR15s have to outsell AR10s at least 100:1. So when an AR10 is already niche, 8.6BLK is then a niche of a niche.
Good point you might be able to ream/neck turn a resized 308 case. I think a large part of the success of 300BLK was that it was so easy to adapt old brass for. Who doesn't have buckets of 5.56 brass sitting around? The barrier to entry was very low. The shoulder is so small it loads pretty much like a straight wall cartridge. I don't lube cases and have never had one stick. If I had to buy a bunch of components or reloading was finicky I don't know I would have ever made the leap to 300BLK.
The 9mm vs 45mm suppressor isn't a big deal to me as I already have both. I could see how that factors into the decision for some people though. I have a Bowers VERS 50 in transfer too. I like big bore and I can not lie...
I haven't looked into 375 Raptor much. It wasn't released yet when I was looking hard at 45 Raptor. I can see how the 375 version beats the 45 for most things. I've gone the 500 Auto max route for now (building my own from scratch.) Already have the reloading equip and bullets from the 500S&W. Need to get back onto that project this spring... (I keep saying that
I do think 338 is a little undersized, but I get why it is neccesary, and definitely the better way to go for supers vs 358 or 375. On paper 8.6 should be able to push a 400+gr bullet to 1050ish FPS, would work in 375, but probably too long for 338. Not sure how many AR10/AR308s vs AR15s are sold, Aero said at one time it was about 10:1 in their line. Thing is there are things a 308 can do that 5.56 or 300BO can't, and 6.5CM's primarily gotten so popular because it works in an AR10 platform, so a good versatile sub/super caliber can probably become popular, provided they do it right. The 45 Raptor is really cool, I looked into them and the 375 a lot too, if the 8.6 is the 300BO's big brother, that 45 Raptor is 350 Legend's big brother, and has much of the same potential, and 400+gr subs available. The main thing I think is cool is the 8.6's power in supersonic with short barrels, it beats 308 pretty much all ways besides cost, especially in shorter barrels. The big thing to me is the 1:3 twist, a 1:6 should be plenty to stabilize subs on paper, and pretty much at max twist for jacketed bullets around 2500FPS. Q is really pushing the faster twist though, primarily because the bullet is spinning so fast it will wobble and yaw violently soon as it encounters unequal resistance. It's a tradeoff most people probably don't want, myself included.
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