Need 6.5 Grendel loading help

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  • lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,680
    Zeroed my new Howa 1500 today and tested handloads in it and my AR-15.

    20” Howa, 18” AR barrels. I’ve read the Howa 1500 (at least in Grendel) runs slow for the barrel length. I am using CCI small pistol primers, Starline brass and, Hornady 123gr HPBT bullets and CFE 223.

    Loaded to 2.255” with a taper crimp

    First set are Howa and second set are AR numbers.
    29gr 2199fps 8.5SD. 2293 15.3SD
    30gr 2299fps 6.4SD 2360 21.9SD
    31gr 2364fps 9.8SD 2441 16.2SD

    It’d be nice if the Howa was faster, but it is what it is. The 30gr group for the Howa my chrono only captured 2 of the 5 rounds, but the SD/spread is really close. On those rounds and all of them. So the severs he velocity is probably pretty accurate.

    AR best group was a little under 2” at 100yds. The Howa best was a little under MOA (maybe around .8MOA, I didn’t haul the target back to use calipers). The AR manages about MOA with Hornady ELD-M and Federal Fusion. About 1.5MOA with Hornady American gunner (which uses the same 123gr HPBT bullets I am loading)

    After getting home I realized the 123gr HPBT rounds are a LOT shorter than ELD-M, which I was using the load data for. .025” shorter. Hornady lists 2.245” and 31.2gr max with CFE 223 and 2500fps out of an 18” Alexander arms upper and I loaded a max of 2.255” and 31gr and saw 2441fps with my home built 18” upper (ignore the slower Howa data for now).

    So I am think to get roughly reproducible numbers I need to shorten COAL to 2.220” to match the bullet seating depth. Though since 2.255” is not hitting the lands in either rifle, me thinks shortening COAL will not increase accuracy.

    Is that probably true? I want the bullet seated to between .002 and .005” off the lands, correct? I have not loaded a bullet long and inserted it in to the rifle to see where it pushes the bullet too for COAL.

    My thought is since I’ve got a lot more case capacity with the bullet seated long, I could safely inch up my powder charge some. Lyman claims 31gr, 48,700psi and 2.245” COAL with a 123gr ELD-m. Hornady says 31.2gr and 2.245”, no max pressure listed.

    SAMMI says 52,000psi. Lyman claims a 9,800psi gain going from 29gr to 31gr.

    So seems like I could play with COAL length of 2.255-2.260” (to keep it within AR mag length) and up powder capacity a bit above what Hornady and Lyman are listing without changing blowing up my guns or putting a bolt handle through my head.

    Thinking I’d try loading a few cartridges at 31 and 31.2gr and 2.220” COAL to verify if that’s a lot closer to Hornady’s data for my 18”. But mostly I want to try loading at 2.255 or 2.260 at (depends on what my bullet seating on the lands test tells me) and 31.2, 31.4, 31.6gr. See velocities. See accuracy. Look real close for any pressure signs (2.255” and 31gr and the cases looked just dandy out of the AR and Howa, zero signs of pressure).

    Or should I be approaching it .1gr at a time?

    Or shooting for lower “over max” charges? Or hell, more?

    I am as concerned about case life as anything. But I’d love to get in to the 2400fps range out of the Howa, if it remains accurate.

    If I get 5 reloads out of the brass I’d be happy. 6 or more ecstatic. 4 or less, pissed. I’ve got about 150 Hornady and Federal cases (mostly Hornady) and I picked up 250 new Starline cases a couple weeks ago. Likely at some point I’ll pickup another 250 or 500 Starline cases some day. I’ve got around 250-300 commercial loads I can of course reload as well at some point once I’ve emptied the brass (mostly Hornady, a bit of federal, a box of frontier and 3 boxes of PPU. The new PPU, not the recalled stuff).

    Thoughts? Questions? Suggestions? Concerns?

    PS at some point I need to work up an ELD-M load and PPU load. I’ve got 200 123gr ELD-M and 200 PPU 120gr HPBT bullets. But about 900 123gr Hornady HPBT.
     

    danimalw

    Ultimate Member
    All of my reloading stuff is still packed in boxes including my notes as I build out my room in the new house.

    With that said, here's what I've been playing with for grendel reloads. Used Alex Arms reloading data from 1000 years ago. Pretty sure it had load data for Lapua and wolf brass. Using max charge of blc2 or aa2520, lapua brass and 123smk, gave me moa or better and decent m.v. in either my 16" or 24". With lapua brass, I use either CCI 450 or 41's, drawing a blank on what primers I used with wolf brass (large primers). I loaded wolf brass as plinking fodder. I've loaded some of the brass 5-6 times so far without seeing any issues.

    I really want to play with it more because I'm sure can get to 1/2 moa or better.

    If you have either of those powders, maybe try them and see?

    As for o.a.l., I loaded to max to fit AR mags.

    I think the bad reports of wolf brass splitting when fired aren't from wolf, but from perhaps bad head spacing or buffer/buffer springs in ARs. I haven't had any wolf brass split and have reloaded them multiple times too.

    I can't comment on the starline brass since I have only used lapua and wolf.

    I know this wasn't exactly what you were looking for, but maybe something to consider.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,680
    I appreciate the thoughts. Unfortunately all I have is CFE223. I do have a couple pounds of win 748 I have to get from a buddy. I plan to work up a load with it as well.

    Helps to have some ideas for things to try and what not. Just not the most load data around.

    I feel like the weirdo who is screaming at the sky shaking my fist going “why isn’t there more love for the Grendel!?! It’s an amazing cartridge and all ya’ll need to try it!”

    Just wish there weren’t such shortages. I guess I should be lucky I’ve got a decent amount of basically everything for all my calibers both commercial loads and reloading stuff. Just no real ability to get a bit of a ton of different things to try out a huge variety of stuff.

    Sadly no 450 or 41 primers or any SRM primers. Just SR CCI and Winchester to choose from. I was loading with CCI SR (that’s the 400, correct?). Didn’t seem to have an issue igniting it even though it’s a spherical powder. Nice low SDs in my bolt gun and fine SDs in the AR. Cartridges were certainly nice and cold soaked as they’d been in my range bag for at least an hour if not 2 at about 40F this morning and then on the bench in ziplocks for another 15-20 minutes before I shot it. AR I loaded up 5 rounds in to the mag and fired each one a few seconds between rounds. The Howa I single loaded and left the bolt back about 10 seconds between shots for each 5 round string.

    Odd question, but can magazines have any real impact on accuracy? First time I was trying out one of the Amend2 polymer mags I had gotten a couple months ago after they finally released them. I’d think not, other than the differential of loading left or right side of the bolt (the Amend mags load single stack from the top of the mag, biased right).

    I mean, that’s no 0F, but at least it is on the cooler side of things.
     

    danimalw

    Ultimate Member
    Sorry, can't help on the mag question. When I got bit by the Grendel bug, I bought a krap-ton of c-products mags so that is all I have for the Grendel.

    Funny how you are working on a howa because if I had time and the funds, I'm the weirdo too that would want to build one. Just can't justify it with 2 AR Grendels.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,680
    Sorry, can't help on the mag question. When I got bit by the Grendel bug, I bought a krap-ton of c-products mags so that is all I have for the Grendel.

    Funny how you are working on a howa because if I had time and the funds, I'm the weirdo too that would want to build one. Just can't justify it with 2 AR Grendels.

    I really wanted a bolt gun in Grendel. Have an 18” AR and put together a stupid cheap 24” upper about a year ago. Only put a few rounds through the 24”, but it shoots great.

    Looking for a .223 bolt gun at some point. I like my Semis better on many levels. But a nice bolt is just so nice to run. And never have to go chasing brass for reloading. I guess a bit less important in .223, but for 6.5 Grendel and .308...

    Legacy Arms 20” Howa 1500 from Classic. About $500 shipped...stock isn’t the nicest, but it’s fine. I can easily see how it could become a $1000 rifle with a really nice stock and metal bottom. But feels nice right out of the gate. Seems to shoot great, trigger is really nice and bolt is very smooth. Only real thing I don’t like is the bolt has a very limited travel past the rear of the cartridges before it hits the stop. I’d guess like a tenth of an inch at most. So if you cycle it slow and careful you’ve gotta make sure to pull it all the way back or you skip over the next round.

    Not really that hard to make sure you cycle it right, but eh. Most other bolt guns I own or have shot you’ve got a little more travel between the rear of the cartridges and the bolt stop.
     

    danimalw

    Ultimate Member
    Found data

    So I finally reassembled my reloading bench today and unpacked more... And found the load data that I downloaded from Alexander Arms 1000 years ago.

    This is when the only brass maker was Lapua.

    Without playing too much, I worked up to max charge with blc2 (31.8 gr) and 2520 (30.8gr) with 123 smks and had good results.
     

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    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,680
    Thanks guys. Loaded up some at 2.255" and 31.2, 31.4 and 31.6gr of CFFE 223 use a Hornady 123gr BTHP. Hornady calls for 2.245" on an ELDM and 31.2gr max. The BTHP is same bullet profile, but lacking the tip is .02" shorter. I'll see how she does.
     

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