Hornady ELD Bullets For Reloading

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

  • No ad networks!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • Bountied

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 6, 2012
    6,893
    Pasadena
    My 6.5 shoots the 147gr eld-m very well. I got sub moa at 300yds with a lower quality scope. I do have a barrel tuner for my AR .223 target rifle. I was messing around with different muzzle devices and was noticing my accuracy with FGMM 75gr loads was fluctuating. I started doing some research on harmonics and I bought a RAS tuner. It was pretty impressive how my groups opened and closed as I adjusted the tuner. I shot 9 3 round groups and there was definitely an effect with the adjustment of the tuner. I went out to 200yds with it and was doing sub moa with a semi auto gas gun I put together myself. I may have been lucky but the tuner definitely did something. On the other hand I tried the same thing with my 6.5cm bolt gun and the tuner had no effect on groups, they were all sub moa. If I stretched it out some more maybe I would have seen something but being able to hit a 4" piece of steel at 500yds consistently I called it good and left it alone. FYI it's a Tikka T3 Tac-A1 and is pretty solid.

    So I'm not sure if it's me, the gun, the cartridge selection, the moon phase, or something else.
     

    Bountied

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 6, 2012
    6,893
    Pasadena
    My 6.5 shoots the 147gr eld-m very well. I got sub moa at 300yds with a lower quality scope. I do have a barrel tuner for my AR .223 target rifle. I was messing around with different muzzle devices and was noticing my accuracy with FGMM 75gr loads was fluctuating. I started doing some research on harmonics and I bought a RAS tuner. It was pretty impressive how my groups opened and closed as I adjusted the tuner. I shot 9 3 round groups and there was definitely an effect with the adjustment of the tuner. I went out to 200yds with it and was doing sub moa with a semi auto gas gun I put together myself. I may have been lucky but the tuner definitely did something. On the other hand I tried the same thing with my 6.5cm bolt gun and the tuner had no effect on groups, they were all sub moa. If I stretched it out some more maybe I would have seen something but being able to hit a 4" piece of steel at 500yds consistently I called it good and left it alone. FYI it's a Tikka T3 Tac-A1 and is pretty solid.

    So I'm not sure if it's me, the gun, the cartridge selection, the moon phase, or something else.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Is a better description for a floating barrel "better consistancy". That is to say that even at different temperatures, ambient temperature & Barrel temperature, as well as hand/bag/bench rest pressure, the movement/vibration etc of the barrel/gun is MORE consistent from shot to shot vs having anything in contact with the barrel.

    Many of my milsurps with all the wood in contact with the barrels exhibit stringing when heated up. A repeatable POI is always best when I take time between shots to keep the heat down.

    It appears from reading Ed's posts that he has been able to eliminate Most of the things that other mainstream re loaders are fighting having to do with rifle quality.
    I expect that whats make the FGMM shoot well is mostly quality components (components being consistent), loaded consistently, but in addition to a widely tested load formula based on known averages of barrel length/design (my guess)

    Reading more on the definition "harmonics" as well as the OCW method, I am not certain the application of the word is correct. I do not disagree that there is vibration and that the vibration has certain frequency components that are "harmonics" of a major vibration component, but maybe there is a better word for finding the "calmest and most consistent point of the vibration" I think Harmonics come into play where the calmest point is when the major vibrating frequencies converge to a common peak/trough where the movement is minimized. Like a ocean tide is calmest during "slack tide" where the ocean current is changing direction.

    Ahh, but it is all Semantics . what I come out with this is good components loaded consistently into a good quality rifle = good accuracy. squeezing extra out of it is where the OCW comes from. Per Ed's comments OCW will get you better but only so far if the base components are not good.

    Thx again.
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,244
    Mid-Merlind
    ...I may have been lucky but the tuner definitely did something. On the other hand I tried the same thing with my 6.5cm bolt gun and the tuner had no effect on groups, they were all sub moa.
    I believe you were seeing exactly what I was talking about above: A muzzle device can move the symptom, but a precision rifle has no symptoms...
    If I stretched it out some more maybe I would have seen something but being able to hit a 4" piece of steel at 500yds consistently I called it good and left it alone. FYI it's a Tikka T3 Tac-A1 and is pretty solid.
    If your bullet is stabilized properly and exhibits good precision to 500 yards it will be fine further out unless there is an anomaly with the bullet such as with the 168 SMK as it goes transonic.
    So I'm not sure if it's me, the gun, the cartridge selection, the moon phase, or something else.
    If you cannot explain it with logic and science, it is obviously either the moon phase or harmonics.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    My 6.5 shoots the 147gr eld-m very well. I got sub moa at 300yds with a lower quality scope. I do have a barrel tuner for my AR .223 target rifle. I was messing around with different muzzle devices and was noticing my accuracy with FGMM 75gr loads was fluctuating. I started doing some research on harmonics and I bought a RAS tuner. It was pretty impressive how my groups opened and closed as I adjusted the tuner. I shot 9 3 round groups and there was definitely an effect with the adjustment of the tuner. I went out to 200yds with it and was doing sub moa with a semi auto gas gun I put together myself. I may have been lucky but the tuner definitely did something. On the other hand I tried the same thing with my 6.5cm bolt gun and the tuner had no effect on groups, they were all sub moa. If I stretched it out some more maybe I would have seen something but being able to hit a 4" piece of steel at 500yds consistently I called it good and left it alone. FYI it's a Tikka T3 Tac-A1 and is pretty solid.

    So I'm not sure if it's me, the gun, the cartridge selection, the moon phase, or something else.

    What barrel was on the 223 gun that you use the tuner on?
     

    PowPow

    Where's the beef?
    Nov 22, 2012
    4,712
    Howard County
    A single harmonic is just a vibration at a different frequency as a result of another. Resonance is an effect that results from more than one harmonic being in play. It seems to me that a rifle of poor construction or lesser pedigree would be more prone to resonance.

    This is an example of the effect of resonance on a bridge. Imagine what effects this might have on your projectiles.

     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,244
    Mid-Merlind
    ....It appears from reading Ed's posts that he has been able to eliminate Most of the things that other mainstream re loaders are fighting having to do with rifle quality.
    The central point is that when we chase loads, trying to "match harmonics for a 'finicky' rifle", we are actually taking aspirin to treat a brain tumor. We are really trying to find a load that is less affected by whatever mechanical issue exists.

    As an easy example: A rifle with a sloppy throat will often do better with a bullet having a longer bearing surface that provides better guidance and resulting better concentricity as it engraves into the rifling. Same thing with using flat base bullets in a badly worn throat - they typically perform well for a while longer after the rifle will no longer stabilize boattails.

    Yes, I do have some custom rifles, but I also have and have had some pretty solid factory guns. I milled the floorplate inlet to install Badger bottom metal in my LTR, but it is otherwise unmodified and it typically runs FGMM 168s into a little ragged hole at 100 yards.
    I expect that whats make the FGMM shoot well is mostly quality components (components being consistent), loaded consistently, but in addition to a widely tested load formula based on known averages of barrel length/design (my guess)
    Great bullets (168 SMKs), great primers (210Ms), mediocre powder (IMR-4064 is OK, but it's temp sensitive), OK brass (FGMM brass is very soft..).Powder is metered, not weighed, which should be a lesson in and of itself*), BUT it's all rolled into an OCW load that performs.

    *When you see handloaders weighing charges to 1/100th of a grain, thinking they are somehow contributing to consistent performance, KNOW IN YOUR HEART that they took a wrong turn back down the trail and have missed the point. If I can get my match loads within a few tenths (that's right, tenths), I'm GTG and I know my ammo will not be the problem. If you weigh some FGMM charges, you'll see the same minor, and inconsequential, variations. In the grand scheme of things, minor charge weight variations take a back seat to the other potential variables in our combination of components, most notably brass variations.

    The OCW thing is NOT a rifle barrel length exercise, it is a cartridge case exercise. You are working to the optimum charge weight for a specific powder in a specific case capacity/shape. If you bullet is compatible with your bore geometry and the powder is appropriate to the cartridge, near-universally good results are typically easy to achieve.

    As Pinecone notes above, you can run this same OCW load through any number of barrel lengths and it remains in the OCW zone. My homemade .308 has a 26" barrel, the LTR sports a 20. Both LOVE FGMM 168s.
     

    Bountied

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 6, 2012
    6,893
    Pasadena
    White Oaks are typically great barrels, this one may have been defective somehow or experienced issues related to the bolt/barrel extension.

    I put the rifle together myself so that may be part of the issue also. I don't typically go through the long barrel break in process for my guns. I usually shoot them, then clean for carbon, and I'm just looking for a clean shiny bore.

    The Fiocchi ammo I was shooting could be part of the issue too. I was getting +/- 100fps from the factory loads (don't remember the SD). It was shooting well with the first muzzle brake I had. I went to upgrade that and started getting more fliers and larger groups.

    I don't keep very good records of my shooting sessions like weather, ammo temp/velocities etc. The rifle was a fun build and my anecdotal evidence of improvement with the tuner is probably due to any number of other factors.
     

    Bountied

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 6, 2012
    6,893
    Pasadena
    Also to be clear the groups I was getting were sub moa then opened up to about 1-3 moa. I guess I shouldn't expect one ragged hole at 100yds with an AR rifle I put together. I got her back to about 1 moa and I'm happy with that. The RAS tuner looks cool and matches the stainless barrel so I'll leave it alone.
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,244
    Mid-Merlind
    I put the rifle together myself so that may be part of the issue also. I don't typically go through the long barrel break in process for my guns. I usually shoot them, then clean for carbon, and I'm just looking for a clean shiny bore.
    IMO, barrel break-in is a waste of barrel life, especially with solvents like Wipe-Out available.

    Cleaning does need to be thorough, and often a hard carbon ring at the end of the chamber can cause issues if one is not aware and careful to address it.
    The Fiocchi ammo I was shooting could be part of the issue too. I was getting +/- 100fps from the factory loads (don't remember the SD).
    Fiocchi would not be my first choice for performance testing, as evidenced by your large velocity variations. Even if close range precision is OK, variation like that will kill your long range scores.
    It was shooting well with the first muzzle brake I had. I went to upgrade that and started getting more fliers and larger groups.
    You may have over-tightened the muzzle device. The military marksmanship teams who use M-16s in competition only hand tighten their devices. Most online instructions state a torque spec from the milspec manual that will be excessive for a match gun. If you still have the barrel and want to check it, I'd start with loosening the muzzle device and re-tightening it to be hand tight or barely more, and with known-good ammo.

    Another potential issue is the bolt if it didn't come with the barrel. If you have a spare, swap them out, check headspace and then test it with known-good ammo.

    Chad (Clandestine) is the go-to guy for ARs, if the changes I suggested don't help, he could fix it or at least isolate the problem for you.
     

    Bountied

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 6, 2012
    6,893
    Pasadena
    Ed,

    Thanks for the advice. I'll try reinstalling the muzzle device. I can't remember but I believe I used a crush washer and only turned it 1/8" of a turn passed resistance. The RAS tuner doesn't need to be timed so you don't need to torque very much. With the device installed it's hard to tell if there is carbon build up around the crown. I may just get a thread protector and call it a day.
     

    KRC

    Active Member
    Sep 30, 2018
    615
    Cecil County MD
    A Different View

    E.Shell

    In the few months I have been on this site I have thoroughly enjoyed your posts. They have demonstrated clear logical thinking (common sense), depth of knowledge, and are very well written. (Expressing oneself in the English language is a disappearing skill – but don’t get me started on that . . .) You have obviously taken significant amounts of your time to share your knowledge and to educate others. Thank you for your efforts.

    With this in mind I was stunned to read your post #33 in this thread. On the main point you make in this post, I will have to not only disagree, but state that this statement is simply incorrect. (Unless I have misinterpreted this statement.)

    “A properly assembled rifle using decent components is insensitive to load changes.”

    If by “insensitive to load changes” you mean precision will not be affected, and that the precision of a “properly assembled rifle” cannot be attenuated with load development, quite simply thousands of shooters over decades of precision shooting have found otherwise. I will go further and state that the better a rifle has been assembled (components and construction), the better it will show precision attenuation with even minor load changes.

    The guys that live and breathe the ultimate in rifle precision, the competitive benchrest crowd, would almost certainly vehemently disagree with your statement. These guys spend inordinate amounts of time determining the loads that provide the best precision in their VERY well assembled rifles. Many of the top shooters will even adjust their loads during a match to respond to changing temperature and humidity conditions.

    Powder type and charge, primer type, case type, neck tension, seating depth, bullet brand and type, case prep etc. are all endlessly tested not just to achieve consistency from round to round, but to maximize precision for a particular rifle. If you show up at a serious benchrest precision match with a “good enough” load, a load that has not been meticulously optimized to that rifle, be prepared to look WAY down the scoring sheet for your name.

    Note that these shooters are not good-ole boys shooting minute of deer at 100 yards. Precision in the benchrest world is largely measured by the average size of an aggregate of five 5-shot groups at a given distance. While score shooting directly measures accuracy rather than precision, as everyone knows, precision is required for consistent accuracy. The difference between a ½ MOA rifle and a ¼ MOA rifle is quite significant. The difference between a 1/4MOA and a 1/8MOA rifle is likely even more significant. Achieving this kind of precision is simply not done without loads that are “tuned” to the rifle system.

    I do agree that if one has a rifle that has some limitation in barrel quality, chambering, action quality, bedding, assembly, crowning etc. (“dozen considerations”), load tuning will not be able to improve precision past the limitation. But precision improvement and achievement of the maximum inherent precision from even a less-that-ideally built rifle (most rifles) will usually be attained only with careful load development.

    So, I will respectfully disagree with the statement

    “A properly assembled rifle using decent components is insensitive to load changes.”

    And instead present

    “The basic principle of matching load to rifle system to improve precision applies to almost any well-assembled rifle”.

    I realize that this post will not change your thinking on this matter, and I respect your right to your view, based on your extensive experience. I do not wish to debate the issue (don’t have the time or energy), however, my experience has demonstrated a very different conclusion on this matter, and I do want this forum to be aware that a differing view exists, and is almost universally shared among the community of shooters that participate in the quest for precision.

    P.S.
    A couple of other tangentially related comments . . . Many shooters that I see have the precision performance of their rifles severely limited by two factors. The first is shooting technique and all that entails, and the second is attention to the WIND. In a less-than optimally assembled rifle, there is likely more precision improvement to be gain by working on these two factors that there is by fine tuning a load.

    With no disrespect intended, last week I observed a young man (everyone is a young man now) shoot his very nice new 6.5 Grendel AR-15 at 600 yards. He was shooting handloaded ammo and could not see where his shots were going (no hits on a 2-foot diameter steel plate). Once we got him “on paper” it was evident that he was shooting ~ 2-foot groups. Up down and sideways. I am quite sure this shooter and rifle are capable of MUCH better precision at 600 yards, but load tuning is not what will be needed until shooting technique issues have been addressed.

    With respect to the wind, many (most?) shooters simply do not appreciate the effect of the wind on precision. Youtube is full of guys posting videos of their groups, ostensibly demonstrating their precision prowess, while the soundtracks are full of the sound of the howling wind. If you are attempting to maximize precision, or are doing load testing towards that goal, and are NOT taking into consideration the effect of the wind, you are wasting your time. Again, not so much if you are shooting 2MOA at 100 yards, but if you are in the 1/2 MOA or better range, wind, even a light wind, will be a significant factor.

    KRC
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    One thing on harmonics.

    The guy who worked out the math on why OCW worked, did find some actual barrel vibration affects.

    It seems the barrel vibrates in a figure 8 pattern. It is not symmetrical, but one loop is larger than the other. The most accurate load is a combination of the OCW/OBT, and getting the bullet to exit at the ends of the loops, as the barrel moves less on those areas, so minor changes in exit time do not affect the group.
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,815
    One thing on harmonics.

    The guy who worked out the math on why OCW worked, did find some actual barrel vibration affects.

    It seems the barrel vibrates in a figure 8 pattern. It is not symmetrical, but one loop is larger than the other. The most accurate load is a combination of the OCW/OBT, and getting the bullet to exit at the ends of the loops, as the barrel moves less on those areas, so minor changes in exit time do not affect the group.

    You mean this guy?....

    http://www.the-long-family.com/OBT_paper.htm

    Now my head is really smarting(as in pain...).
     

    Users who are viewing this thread

    Latest posts

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    274,922
    Messages
    7,259,100
    Members
    33,349
    Latest member
    christian04

    Latest threads

    Top Bottom