HBAR a Regulated Firearm?

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  • DNR (in MD) aren't bound by property lines, fences.... nothing.

    To my knowledge, they can enter a property at will without warning or warrant. That was what we were told a few years ago while being checked. We also told the guy if he was going to take any longer he'd need to go ahead and get IN the blind so we could stop fugging around and kill birds.

    Who ever told you that was full of crap. All law enforcement virtually everywhere has to have probable cause to enter your property without permission. If they come onto your property without permission they are trespassing just like you or I if we entered somebody else's property without permission. Now they may take liberties with the definition of probable cause and I have seen that happen but they cannot indiscriminately enter your private property without a warrant or probable cause. Even if you're hunting on someone else's property as long as you have a lease and written permission they still have to get permission to enter the property. If you have a legal lease you can grant them permission or ask them to leave if you don't have a legal lease they have to get permission from the landowner.
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    Who ever told you that was full of crap. All law enforcement virtually everywhere has to have probable cause to enter your property without permission. If they come onto your property without permission they are trespassing just like you or I if we entered somebody else's property without permission. Now they may take liberties with the definition of probable cause and I have seen that happen but they cannot indiscriminately enter your private property without a warrant or probable cause. Even if you're hunting on someone else's property as long as you have a lease and written permission they still have to get permission to enter the property. If you have a legal lease you can grant them permission or ask them to leave if you don't have a legal lease they have to get permission from the landowner.
    I'm going to have to respectfully disagree then. It might not be written anywhere (must like MSP SOP), but, you better believe they move around without warrants as they please.

    Every single time we've been check on FULLY privately owned land they've never asked anyone permission to enter.....not once.

    I highly doubt us telling them to go ahead and turn around and leave would have ended well either.
     

    Allen65

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 29, 2013
    7,063
    Anne Arundel County
    Who ever told you that was full of crap. All law enforcement virtually everywhere has to have probable cause to enter your property without permission. If they come onto your property without permission they are trespassing just like you or I if we entered somebody else's property without permission. Now they may take liberties with the definition of probable cause and I have seen that happen but they cannot indiscriminately enter your private property without a warrant or probable cause. Even if you're hunting on someone else's property as long as you have a lease and written permission they still have to get permission to enter the property. If you have a legal lease you can grant them permission or ask them to leave if you don't have a legal lease they have to get permission from the landowner.

    Depends on what you're defining by the term "property". If by that you mean "curtilage", you are correct. If you mean property in general, such as farmland, forest, then not necessarily so. There the "Open Field Rule" applies.

    Curtilage is your house and immediate surrounding land, where IIRC there is a reasonable expectation of privacy. See the SCOTUS case US v. Dunn here:
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/480/294
    also Oliver v. US:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_v._United_States
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Depends on what you're defining by the term "property". If by that you mean "curtilage", you are correct. If you mean property in general, such as farmland, forest, then not necessarily so. There the "Open Field Rule" applies.

    Curtilage is your house and immediate surrounding land, where IIRC there is a reasonable expectation of privacy. See the SCOTUS case US v. Dunn here:
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/480/294
    also Oliver v. US:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_v._United_States

    That is my understanding of property law. That said, since it is your property, you have an absolute right to tell law enforcement officers to leave as they are trespassing. They can only refuse to leave if they have a legitimate law enforcement reason for being there AND probable cause.

    And yes a game warden can easily say “well I thought the guy in the stand might not have a hunting license.” They cannot blindly just traipse through private property looking for possible poachers or whatever. They would need to suspect hunting or trapping is occurring and that there could be a violation of game laws occurring. They could probably stretch that to include license and equipment checks. But again, they’d have to have a reasonable believe that there could be a DNR violation occurring.

    “Looking for hunters” wouldn’t be reasonable. “I saw a hunter from the road” or whatever would likely fall in to totally reasonable. Heck, “I heard gun shots” probably could even be considered reasonable.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    60+ years of interaction with DNR, all my experiences have been positive or neutral. I've heard a few bad stories and recall a few officers who insisted on the letter of the law, but in general, I'd rather deal with them than any other LEO's.

    Also to remember - everyone of them has advanced first aid training in case YOU need it somewhere way out in the boonies.

    I’ve only had 4 years of interactions, but mine have been positive or neutral. Heck, last one was getting pulling away from the side of a road by some forest land marked for hunting and the DNR officer thought there was a chance I was hunting from my car as it wasn’t a formal parking space. Did a quick hunting license check and just eyeballed through the windows of my car for a few seconds and told me why he pulled me over.

    I told him I was trying to find good hunting spots around there and was from the western shore and it turned out it was all flooded timber and treacherous as heck. Just coincidence that when he rounded the corner I turned my car on to drive off (that part I didn’t say, I think he figured that one out on his own). He gave me directions to an okay spot nearby to check out.
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    So, if this bill passes and there is no grandfather clause (God forbid), and the state doesn't know the whereabouts of a bunch of HBARs purchased after 2013, how are these a$$holes going to round them up?

    In short, what HBAR?
    :innocent0

    It isn't about rounding them up by knocking on your door. It is about finding people with them at the range, at traffic stops, at auto accidents when the driver is on the way to the hospital and the vehicle needs to be towed, etc.

    Will you take a post ban HBAR to the range or hunting? What happens if they run the serial number with the manufacturer?

    I so hope this bill gets scrapped.
     

    rbird7282

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 6, 2012
    18,538
    Columbia
    It isn't about rounding them up by knocking on your door. It is about finding people with them at the range, at traffic stops, at auto accidents when the driver is on the way to the hospital and the vehicle needs to be towed, etc.



    Will you take a post ban HBAR to the range or hunting? What happens if they run the serial number with the manufacturer?



    I so hope this bill gets scrapped.



    What do you mean finding them at the range? I’ve never been to a range where police are checking firearms, NOT ONCE. I don’t know if anyone whose had their firearm checked at a range by police. I’ve never even heard of anyone having their firearm checked by police at a range.
    You really think they will start visiting ranges? Even if they ask, it’s none of their damn business. You want to see it? Get a warrant.
    How many are found at traffic stops? Almost none unless we’re talking about drug dealers in which case I don’t care because they’re drug dealers.
    I wish people would stop with the BGOS.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    I'm not sure BGOS applies when (if) caught with one unregistered it'll be the last time you (legally) own firearms.

    I'd prefer not to instantly have a felony on my record.
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    Huh, I misread then.

    So,... if that's not true than everyone (literally) can just say,....."what....THIS?, nah, this was pre 2013".

    Tough to prove otherwise, no?

    Why can't they arrest you, confiscate the weapon, send a subpoena to the manufacturer for the manufacture date based upon the serial number, and then nail you to the wall if the manufacture date comes back after 9/30/2013?
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    I'm not sure BGOS applies when (if) caught with one unregistered it'll be the last time you (legally) own firearms.

    I'd prefer not to instantly have a felony on my record.

    AS of right now, there is no "registration" language in the bill. Granted, that might also be because there is no "grandfathering" language in the bill either. I'm just going to wait and see what, if anything, becomes of this bill and then act accordingly. Only have a limited amount of funds that I can get approval from my wife to use on firearms this year, and I doubt an HBAR will even be on my want list IF the LGQL bill gets passed. Man, just remembered that I have a matched set Wilson Combat upper/lower that is post FSA2013 that I would need to address. Otherwise, not too worried about the HBAR issue from a personal perspective. Worried to death from an infringement perspective.
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    Why can't they arrest you, confiscate the weapon, send a subpoena to the manufacturer for the manufacture date based upon the serial number, and then nail you to the wall if the manufacture date comes back after 9/30/2013?

    Sure, that was my point. People are fairly blazablah about it all, till one of us is hemmed up over it.

    I was noting that it WON'T be as simple as someone just claiming "what gun", not when it's sitting in front of you at a range and a super Trooper want's to inquire.
     

    Art3

    Eqinsu Ocha
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2015
    13,267
    Harford County
    It isn't about rounding them up by knocking on your door. It is about finding people with them at the range, at traffic stops, at auto accidents when the driver is on the way to the hospital and the vehicle needs to be towed, etc.

    An ERPO would make it about knocking on your door :innocent0
     

    ForEnglandJames

    Active Member
    Nov 3, 2016
    185
    Reisterstown
    HBAR is cash-n-carry, no MD state paperwork required. Lower receivers are regulated since you could make a pistol from them.

    Could anyone point me to the specific part of the law that states this? I don’t doubt it exists, but I’m having trouble finding it.

    I want to sell an AR with a heavy barrel face to face, cash and carry but I’m frankly terrified of accidentally breaking a law and ending up in jail. I know this state is more than happy to prosecute people like me for unintentionally violating the law, while at the same time making those very laws as clear as mud.

    Is there a specific law I can reference or even a person at the state police who I could reach out to to confirm?
     

    Allen65

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 29, 2013
    7,063
    Anne Arundel County
    Could anyone point me to the specific part of the law that states this? I don’t doubt it exists, but I’m having trouble finding it.

    You won't find it in COMAR. In US law, "that which is not specifically illegal, is legal". The grossly misnamed Firearms Safety Act of 2013" specifically exempted the Colt Sporter HBAR from the ban list, and MDSP has been interpreting that exemption to include all rifles marked "HBAR".
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    13,087
    You won't find it in COMAR. In US law, "that which is not specifically illegal, is legal". The grossly misnamed Firearms Safety Act of 2013" specifically exempted the Colt Sporter HBAR from the ban list, and MDSP has been interpreting that exemption to include all rifles marked "HBAR".

    The Colt Sporter HBAR has been exempt since the beginning of the list in 1989. Once Colt's patent expired in 1996, everyone could make one, at which point MSP affirmed that the "or their copies" applied to any and all HBAR AR-15 pattern rifles.
     

    ForEnglandJames

    Active Member
    Nov 3, 2016
    185
    Reisterstown
    To be clear, mine is not a Colt HBAR. I built it from a complete lower receiver (purchased with a 77r and a waiting period from Baltimores Best Pawn). The upper is a 20" Delton Heavy Barrel and I have a receipt to show that. Do we all agree is this should be cash and carry?
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    13,087
    To be clear, mine is not a Colt HBAR. I built it from a complete lower receiver (purchased with a 77r and a waiting period from Baltimores Best Pawn). The upper is a 20" Delton Heavy Barrel and I have a receipt to show that. Do we all agree is this should be cash and carry?

    And because it meets the "or their copies" part of the law, it is perfectly legal to sell face to face.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    Short answer = Yes .

    Medium Answer = For almost all purposes , since 10/01/2013 , all rifles in Maryland are either Cash & Carry , or Banned entirely , with no middle ground .

    ( Long Answer would be the few exceptions to above, but none of those are at all relevant to England Jame's questions .)
     

    ForEnglandJames

    Active Member
    Nov 3, 2016
    185
    Reisterstown
    Thanks guys. Oh geez, I just used gendered language. Hope no one was triggered.

    Seriously though, thank you. I’m sorry to be redundant in my questions. I’m paranoid about running afoul of the law in this state.
     

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