Dating a Franken 1911

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  • GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    Turning to the collective for information I have been unable to find. Trying to figure out when a 1911 was made to determine if I should list it in my Bound Book. I think it is getting close to 50, if not already.

    It is an Essex frame. The serial number is 15xx which I know is early production. Post war Colt slide, WWII barrel that was likely in an issued pistol. The workmanship on the build is absolutely perfect. Great fit on everything. No idea who built it as I acquired it privately many years ago and never thought to check on it's date of manufacture, until recently.

    I have found some forum posts on the internet that suggest it may have been made early in the 70's if not before, based upon the serial numbers listed in the posts on Essex frames.

    Essex was purchased by Iver Johnson and they have no records on anything before 2003.

    I am hoping that some here may have a similar Franken 1911 on an Essex frame, and can help me determine it's age. If you know when yours was built and can tell me if mine is older or newer, it would help to narrow it down.

    Thanks in advance.
     

    Jerry M

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2007
    1,688
    Glen Burnie MD
    If you've had the pistol for years what bound book are you adding it to? To my knowledge this frame would not be considered a C&R and is considered a modern (regulated) pistol in MD.
     

    j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    If the pistol was acquired before you had an FFL-03 there's no action necessary on your part. C&R items that are purchased or sold while you have the license need to be logged into the bound book. That's why it's called an Acquisition and Disposition Record.

    ;)
     

    GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    I read somewhere that when a gun in your possession reached 50 years old and you have an 03FFL, that the gun needs to be entered in the book, even if it was possessed prior to getting the license. Guns acquired without use of the license are also supposed to be entered if they are more than 50 years old.

    Just trying to stay in compliance and out of the grey areas.
     

    j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    I read somewhere that when a gun in your possession reached 50 years old and you have an 03FFL, that the gun needs to be entered in the book, even if it was possessed prior to getting the license. Guns acquired without use of the license are also supposed to be entered if they are more than 50 years old.

    Just trying to stay in compliance and out of the grey areas.

    Don't know where you read or heard that, but that's never been my understanding nor have I ever read it on the ATF website: https://www.atf.gov/firearms

    Not saying I'm a C&R expert, but that logic makes no sense. The license is valid for three years. It's not a license to engage in business, only to collect. So, by that logic, anything I acquired before having the license should be entered as it grows older? And if I divest something after I let the license lapse should it also then be recorded in my A&D book? Since the book would be shredded after the license period expires I don't think so...

    Are licensed collectors required to turn in their A&D records to ATF if they discontinue their collecting activity?
    No. Licensed collectors are not required to submit their acquisition and disposition (A&D) records to ATF upon discontinuance of their collecting activity.

    [18 U.S.C. 923(g)(4); 27 CFR 478.127]
     
    Last edited:

    GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    Don't know where you read or heard that, but that's never been my understanding nor have I ever read it on the ATF website: https://www.atf.gov/firearms

    Not saying I'm a C&R expert, but that logic makes no sense. The license is valid for three years. It's not a license to engage in business, only to collect. So, by that logic, anything I acquired before having the license should be entered as it grows older? And if I divest something after I let the license lapse should it also then be recorded in my A&D book? Since the book would be shredded after the license lapses I don't think so...

    Read it on the CMP forums. Seems the school of thought is that if you are audited, it would be prudent to have it listed if no paperwork exists to prove you owned it prior to acquiring the C&R license.

    It also allows it to be sold as C&R, once it is listed in the book if eligible. Not looking to sell it, but do want to know it's approximate age.

    Can we get this thread back on topic, please?
     

    j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    Read it on the CMP forums. Seems the school of thought is that if you are audited, it would be prudent to have it listed if no paperwork exists to prove you owned it prior to acquiring the C&R license.

    It also allows it to be sold as C&R, once it is listed in the book if eligible. Not looking to sell it, but do want to know it's approximate age.

    Can we get this thread back on topic, please?

    I'd be real curious to see and read a link to what what you saw.

    Fact is, as a C&R licensee, you are obligated to record all C&R transactions you may make during the period you hold the license. If you divest a C&R eligible firearm you owned prior to becoming a licensee, then, yes, that disposition should be recorded in the A&D book.

    Since the topic was whether or not you needed to add an item you previously owned to your A&D book when it turned 50 years old - I thought we were on topic.

    I recommend you call the ATF to get further clarification ... I'm done here...

    :sad20:
     
    Jul 1, 2012
    5,712
    The only time you would be required to log it in this scenario is if you sell it while you have an active FFL-03. Then you WOULD need to log it in as an acquisition from your private collection and then log it back out as a disposition to the buyer as appropriate.

    Don't sweat it.
     

    GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    Still trying to determine when the frame was made to confirm if it is even C&R eligible. It is either close, or way past old enough based upon the serial number.

    When was an Essex 1911 frame with serial number 15xx, with a lanyard loop on the base of the grip, made?

    That was the title and topic of the post!

    I was not seeking counsel on whether or not it goes in the bound book. Since I am the licensee, I am ultimately responsible for the records. Too little information can be a problem, too much information is not as likely to upset the ATF.

    Here is a link to the CMP thread for those interested: http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=125032
     
    Jul 1, 2012
    5,712
    Since it's a mish-mash of parts and NOT a production gun, it might not be eligible anyway and logging it would be incorrect.
    You'd be hard-pressed to "prove" a date of manufacture for it to be C&R eligible to the ATF satisfaction unless Essex factory records are available documenting the S/N's.
    And that would be just the bare frame... NOT the completed gun which is what counts.

    You're really over-thinking this one... there's no way you'd be dinged for this pistol not being logged as C&R in any instance.


    The advice to call the ATF Firearms Technology office is the best yet if you are really worried about this.
     

    Magnumite

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 17, 2007
    6,564
    Harford County, Maryland
    Since it's a mish-mash of parts and NOT a production gun, it might not be eligible anyway and logging it would be incorrect.
    You'd be hard-pressed to "prove" a date of manufacture for it to be C&R eligible to the ATF satisfaction unless Essex factory records are available documenting the S/N's.
    And that would be just the bare frame... NOT the completed gun which is what counts.

    You're really over-thinking this one... there's no way you'd be dinged for this pistol not being logged as C&R in any instance.


    The advice to call the ATF Firearms Technology office is the best yet if you are really worried about this.

    This. Essex only produce one 1911, a mil spec copy. It used new parts. Unless you can prove that frame was am assembled pistol, it cannot be C&R. Even the bare frame of a WWI 1911 is not C&R.
     

    GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    Doesn't any commercially available gun that has been routinely sold to the public and was built at least 50 years ago, automatically become eligible? These things were put together, marketed, and sold as completed pistols by the thousands post WWII. Some were still being done into the late 80s. Although not specifically listed as C&R, I would think that it should be considered to be one, if old enough.

    It is my understanding that Essex never produced or sold completed pistols but only produced the frames. The guns were produced by many different sources. Some were done by individuals, many more by skilled gunsmiths, and some by larger companies. Once the firearm has been assembled and marketed to the public by a properly licensed manufacturer, what else would it be but a manufactured firearm?

    In my mind, if it was done by an individual, it cannot be considered eligible for C&R status. If done by someone that was licensed to manufacture and sell firearms, it must be considered eligible if old enough. That is the grey area! At this point, I have no way to discern into which category this tool should fall.

    Yes, I could very well be over thinking this entire matter, but I am OCD, have too much time on my hands, and this has become my latest quest. It fills my time and I gain knowledge(usually).
     

    GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    In the eyes of the atf it is a component at time of sale, therefore, not a completed arm. That would make it ineligible for C&R. Tis a bummer.

    Interesting. Using that logic, any home built firearm, including Polymer80s should be considered nothing more than a collection of parts and could lawfully be sold to anyone, anywhere, at anytime?! After all, it is not a firearm, just a collection of parts.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Brownells was selling Essex frames in the mid to late 90's. Both finished and non finished frames. I believe I still have catalogues from that era and will look.
    I seem to remember (vaguely) seeing Essex 45's in some older text I have but I don't know if there are any serials associated with the info that was published.
    If I run across it Ill check it out for what I have.
     

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